Originally Posted By: lkage This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
dandersen wrote:
I was looking for a little Home Inspection dialogue as to how these issues are handled when discovered.
I can take pitchers all day long with neutrals and grounds on the same busbar, in the same hole etc. "that's the way we do it here"! "Where are you from?"
JTedesco wrote:
Quote:
I can assure you that the practice you describe is illegal and if they say its OK they are wrong and no nothing about the rules that have been in place for many years
I was under the impression that 408.21 was added in the 2002 NEC.
If that is the case and it was done before the code change it wouldn't be illegal, correct? (Recommending something be changed for enhanced safety is something else.)
Just trying to learn here.
-- "I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei
Originally Posted By: joetedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Larry … because the installation has always violated 110.3(B)
Quote:
110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
Here is the UL information that will help everyone
Originally Posted By: lkage This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
joetedesco wrote:
Larry ... because the installation has always violated 110.3(B)
Quote:
110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
Here is the UL information that will help everyone
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Larry,
I believe Joe is refering to statement # 51 in the UL panelboard PDF that he posted but as with many things in the UL they like to leave it JUST grey enough that you have to render a choice.
The key for the HI is to note it, explain that when it comes to grounds it is possible for them to be doubled up on the ground bar IF the panel is labeled as such and is designed to accomedate it.
If the panel is REAL old it may have been done simply because it was not known of the UL statement as part of the NEC 110.13....however it is my opinion that older panels vary rarly came with correct installation manuals or instruction.
I would note it......refer to it but again as a practicle electrician who deals with it everyday...not USED to work with it...I currently do and if the panel is pre 1993 I would explain in the notes on the report about it but in all cases......make sure the neutrals are in their own termination.
I wont go into UL standard 67 which I have and Joe has also in previous posts...If you wish to keep the comments to the NEC code and the standards.....sure it is possible that the older panels are violating the 110.13 and UL but hard to get someone to change a older panel that I am sure has many other issues in it beyond that...
So if you see a case where their is more than (2) of the same size conductors in the terminal bar ( grounded ) then I would note that but mainly look for the doubling up of neutrals.....this poses a much higher risk of problems...
Hope this helps.........going into IF the multiple placement of a few grounds in a panel ( which you hope is even grounded correctly anyway ) is less safety issued than neutrals.....but are important and like I said check the panel...see if it allows multiple grounds...if it does not note it as well while noting any neutrals doubling up.
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I was very happy that they finally put this "individual terminal " language in the code. I hate the idea that all I have to hang my hat on is 110.3(B).
At that point I am only guessing what some manufacturer might have put in the instructions … or what language they were in.
BTW U/L is not the only NRTL. Who knows what TUV or NSF might have been saying when that panel was imported.
It is a concern but you have to be careful with the "Illegal" language.
The hazard really exists when someone is working in the panel and opens a neutral or grounding conductor they didn't intend to. That is the thinking about putting the ground and neutral from the same circuit under the same lug. If the circuit is not energized, both are dead.
From a practical standpoint, if a "made up tight" terminal can provide an effective connection for 3 grounding conductors, it will work for 3 neutrals. The problem is when you loosen the screw.
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I think the biggest concern you really have is that you can’t get too indepth about the issues of UL in the past on a home inspection. What you can be concerned with in all cases is the Neutral layout in that in was at one time way more common to do " Common Neutrals " and " Shared Neutrals " which pose the largest problem in these older style panels.
I would note the safety issue of any multiple neutrals located in the same terminal hole....I would not be as worried about the grounds unless they had over (2) in a single hole....Because while it is a risk it is not as much of such as a removed neutral as greg has mention.
ON a house that is built pre-1999 I would write it up as a suggestion to comply with UL and NEC National Code Standards even if we did not see it formally written in the NEC until 2002 edition.
On a house that is post-1999 I would ( 1.) See if the panel label lists the use of multiple grounds per terminal 2.) Notice if any neutrals are doubled up and such) and explain the possible issue as listed in my previous post for neutral concerns and with grounds explain what the panel label says or does not say.....most all new panels will have a label in it and will say on a chart how many grounds are allowed per terminal....and let that be your guide in your comments on that as well....but in all cases just make them suggestions.....that they contact a licensed electrician for furthur information so it takes you out of it...you made them aware of it.
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Patrick Dacey posted that Thu, Dec 11th, 8:48 2003.
A lot has happened since then, 99% of it was your own doing.
Instead of posting pictures of yourself in a dress and instead of you trying to confuse the issues you probably could have nipped this whole situation in the bud if you had simply seemed the least bit sorry for you comments bashing HIs.
JMO and as it says above all my post I am not a member of NACHI.
Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe I have ever once said you where not helpful.
I still have at least 5 pdf files you where kind enough to send me.
Mass amendments, UL white books, NFPA ROCs etc.
I said thanks then I and I have no problem saying thanks now.
Thank you
But to say this
Quote:
Go ahead and try and stop me from tying to get back to what I am used to doing.
Is just your further denial that YOU are entirely responsible for your own predicament.
You wanted to be NACHIs instructor and they opened the door to you, they gave you your own section.
You in turn made fun of HIs, and when confronted with this you denied it, tried to justify it, tried to spin it into a question of your helpfulness, basically everything but act the least bit apologetic about it.
Seeing as you have at least 20 to 25 years of life experience more than I you should be able to comprehend why much of the NACHI membership was / is upset with you.
