Open grounds on 2 & 3prong outlets

Specific Inspection Topics Electrical Inspections
41

No one has said this is your opinion but it is what you post, correct?

The spread of misinformation escalates simply because one is saying what another has said without anyone doing any research other than what someone else has to say.

Listen to the words of my Grandfather, “Son believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see.”
Gossip is spread widely when no research has been done to investigate the matter.

No one has said this is your opinion but it is what you post, correct?

Have I not given you the opportunity to fully investigate anything I have said? Have I not provided you with links? Have I not given you simple test that you can do yourself?

My Grandfather also had another saying for when we wouldn’t listen to what he had to say. “A hard head makes for a soft ***.” By this I mean you can either keep on asking the blind to lead you through your journey with the theory of electrical current flow or you can research for yourself and spend less time looking for people who agree with you.

Until one masters the theory of series and parallel circuits they will be lost in the study of electron flow. Then there is the need for an understanding of inductance and capacitance and how each react to the flow of AC current flow. Without this knowledge one will have a hard time with grounding and bonding.

UL Standards says that if an appliance or tool is not provided with a double insulation factor that that appliance or tool is required to be provided with an EGC in order to clear a fault that might occur in that appliance or tool.

If this EGC in this appliance or tool was there to protect a person from electrical shock why would there be a need for GFCI protection. Is it not the contention of some that this EGC is a life safety conductor? Then why does that same tool when used outside require GFCI protection?

The answer is simple, the EGC does not save lives but the GFCI does.

Now my quest is simple and that quest is to get you to post some confirmation of the other side of the issue. Please none of the he said she said type of post but some solid confirmation.

42

Again with the splitting hairs and semantics… Ugh…
Call it what you will: suggestion, recommendation, requirement, idea, encouragement, demand, whatever makes you feel more right about being wrong. Here’s a few more:

http://absocold.com/products/two-door-refrigerator-freezers/compact-2-9-cu-ft-refrigerator-freezer-ard298c/
Electrical Requirements: 115 volt, 60 Hz., AC, 15 amp grounded outlet required

http://www.lifespanfitness.com/pdf/Manual_old_TR1000SL.pdTreadmill, Pg. 2 - Power Requirements - 120 Volts nominal (grounded outlet required) 10 Amp

Specifications - Arctic Air F22CW Specifications [Page 4] | ManualsLib unit - 15 Amp recommended circuit, 4 Amps cool cycle, 5.5 defrost, Grounded outlet required

http://www.ajmadison.com/ajmadison/itemdocs/ARFG42FBSPEC-SHEET.pdfRefrig - “Grounded outlet required”

http://www.dwyerproducts.com/Documents/Specifications/Refrigerator_2.9%20RefrigeratorFreezer.pdf
Frig/freezer - “15 amp grounded outlet required”

So do manufacturers, outside of functionality, require an EGC for appliances or equipment? Yes.

43

Not splitting of hairs but an understanding of what is being said. What is being said is it is recommended not a code requirement.

The manufacturer of the product is going to cover their behinds but the manufacturer cannot require anything concerning the electrical installation.

What you are trying to do is take a recommendation from a manufacturer and say that their recommendation means that their appliance can’t be used unless the electrical system has an equipment grounding conductor.

The NEC and the ICC both give a method where an appliance that has a three wire cord can be used on a system that has no equipment grounding conductor and to do so in no way violates any laws of any kind nor is it unsafe.

Also what is written on a flyer does not count. What counts is what is listed in the installation instructions. I only look at the first one and I couldn’t find anything about grounding at all.

**[FONT=Verdana][size=2]ELECTRICAL
**[/size][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][size=1]A minimum 15 AMP electrical
supply is required (20 AMP electrical
supply preferred). A timedelay
fuse or circuit breaker and
separate circuit is recommended.
115V., 60 Hz.
Running Amperage: 1.4 AMPS
[/size][/FONT]

44

They all say the same thing, that manufacturers **do **“require, recommend, encourage”, (choose whatever word and assume for whatever reason you would like), the use of grounded receptacles in their installation instructions. You stated in post #23 that they don’t. That is wrong.

So, for the third time…

outside of functionality, do manufacturers say they require a grounded outlet in their instructions?

45

No they don’t and can’t.

You are looking at a sales flyer and trying to discern a requirement from a general statement. If you are going to say that a manufacturer is requiring a receptacle that is attached to an equipment grounding conductor you must take that statement from the instructions that are included in the listing and labeling of the product.

I can make the statement that an extension cord must be plugged into a grounded receptacle and someone could take that as meaning something entirely different than what was being said.
First unless the receptacle had a grounding hole then the plug would not go into the receptacle but the statement I made did not say that the receptacle is required to be grounded.

When I looked at the spec sheet for the first one I found nothing pertaining to a grounded receptacle. What I found was the instructions that are included in the listing labeling of that piece of equipment and posted it above.

Why would I want to wade through all those links when the first link did not support you statements?

Here are requirements found for a whirlpool tub. Pay attention to the word “required”

[FONT=Verdana]This unit REQUIRES one or more dedicated circuits, protected by a GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER (GFCI). A GFCI is not supplied, however we do specify its use. All known code authorities require a GFCI. Rough in wiring to pump(s) and/or heater on 120v 15 or 20-amp GFCI protected circuit.
**Bonding wire: **Grounding is required. The unit should be installed by a qualified Electrician and grounded as specified. For built in and custom units, install a permanent access for servicing.
[/FONT]

46

To keep the discussion going, how would you address this Mike?

Note to all. the entire Article is not posted here.

**[FONT=Times-Bold][size=2]250.114 Equipment Connected by Cord and Plug. **[/size][/FONT][FONT=Times-Roman][size=2]Under
any of the conditions described in 250.114(1) through (4),
exposed, normally non–current-carrying metal parts of
cord-and-plug-connected equipment shall be connected to
the equipment grounding conductor.

[FONT=Times-Roman][size=2][FONT=Times-Roman]size=2 In residential occupancies:
a. Refrigerators, freezers, and air conditioners
b. Clothes-washing, clothes-drying, dish-washing machines;
ranges; kitchen waste disposers; information
technology equipment; sump pumps and electrical
aquarium equipment
c. Hand-held motor-operated tools, stationary and
fixed motor-operated tools, and light industrial
motor-operated tools
d. Motor-operated appliances of the following types:
hedge clippers, lawn mowers, snow blowers, and
wet scrubbers
e. Portable handlamps
(4) In other than residential occupancies:
a. Refrigerators, freezers, and air conditioners
b. Clothes-washing, clothes-drying, dish-washing machines;
information technology equipment; sump
pumps and electrical aquarium equipment
c. Hand-held motor-operated tools, stationary and
fixed motor-operated tools, and light industrial
motor-operated tools
d. Motor-operated appliances of the following types:
hedge clippers, lawn mowers, snow blowers, and
wet scrubbers
e. Portable handlamps
f. Cord-and-plug-connected appliances used in damp or
wet locations or by persons standing on the ground or
on metal floors or working inside of metal tanks or
boilers
g. Tools likely to be used in wet or conductive locations
[/size][/size][/FONT][/FONT][/size][/FONT]

47

No, I posted four sets of installation instructions which you did not look at, much the same as I did not read any further in your post than the above statement. Everything you said after that was incorrect.

As I said before, until you look at all the links to the manufacturer’s installation manuals/instructions which I posted, you are unable to make an informed response.

Here they are again.

The first one you say you looked at and couldn’t find anything: below are two attached screenshots from the page I linked and from the “Use & Care Guide” the manufacturer supplies on that same page. http://absocold.com/products/two-door-refrigerator-freezers/compact-2-9-cu-ft-refrigerator-freezer-ard298c/

http://www.lifespanfitness.com/pdf/Manual_TR1200i.pdf

http://www.ajmadison.com/ajmadison/itemdocs/ARFG42FBSPEC-SHEET.pdf

http://www.dwyerproducts.com/Documents/Specifications/Refrigerator_2.9%20RefrigeratorFreezer.pdf

You are denying something which is clearly written in black and white. Manufacturers say in no uncertain terms, “grounded outlet required”. You can argue the validity of their instructions or you can argue the reasoning behind it.

What you cannot argue is this absurd stance you are taking that manufacturers don’t require/suggest/recommend/expect/demand/encourage/want/hope for it.

Why Whitt is Wrong.jpg
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Why Whitt is Wrong 2.jpg
Why Whitt is Wrong 2.jpg800×373 54.6 KB

48

Excellent info, Thanks Jim!

49

This is a NEC requirement. What is being discussed here is the installation instructions in the listing and labeling of the product

50

[FONT=Times New Roman]Now click on this link to see what the installation instruction is for the very first link you have posted above.
http://absocold.com/wp-content/uploads/ARD298C/ard298c_092011.pdf

What you have posted as screen shoots means nothing as that is not part of the listing and labeling set forward in the UL Standard. The link I post is part of the listing and labeling of the product.

There is a very easy way to tell if it is part of the listing and labeling or a recommendation and that is to look for the word “required”
If it doesn’t say “required” then it is a recommendation and not a requirement.

To take what you are trying to say forbids any of these appliances to be used unless the premises wiring systems includes an EGC is to say that a person who lives in a home wired without an EGC would be in violation of the law should they purchase one of these appliances for use in their homes.
As Jim has posted above the NEC and the ICC both make provisions for the use of these appliances in a home that does not have an EGC. These provisions can be found in 250.130 and 406.4(D) of the NEC.

(2) Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where attachment to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (D)(2)(a), (D)(2)(b), or (D)(2)(c).
(a) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another non–grounding-type receptacle(s).
(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.

Any of the appliances you have posted above would be allowed to be used once this requirement has been fulfilled.

Even the treadmill which makes the statement to not be used in a GFCI receptacle would be required to be plugged into a GFCI device should that treadmill be located in an area of the home that required GFCI protection.

The recommendation that the treadmill not be used with GFCI protection does not mean that it can be used in a regular receptacle should it be in an area that requires GFCI protection such as an unfinished basement.

My treadmill has the same verbiage in its manual but my treadmill is in my unfinished basement therefore it is plugged into a GFCI protected device without any problems.
The only part of what is said in the manuals for an appliance that would apply to the installation instructions would be this;
110.3**(B)** Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

These instructions will be found in the UL Standard or for a quick reference the UL White Book and they will be characterized by the use of the term “required”

[/FONT]

51

I’ll make this as stupid-proof as possible. Below are three more links to manufacturer’s instruction/installation manuals from three major companies. I have the link to the manuals and I have even posted the specific pages for you with minor annotations to help focus your attention.

Fedders A3DH30B2A Dehumidifier - Installation and Operations Manual, Pg 3

Whirlpool Washer Installation Instruction - Pg. 4
404 | Whirlpool or
-1001704/WTW5600XW/"]Product page](http://www.whirlpool.com/laundry-1/laundry-2/washers-3/-WTW5600XW) - Select "Manuals & Literature, Installation Guide

GE Cafe Free-Standing Range, - Pg. 51
http://products.geappliances.com/MarketingObjectRetrieval/Dispatcher?RequestType=PDF&Name=49-85183-3.pdf

Manufacturers may not have authority to enforce their requirements, but contrary to what you claim, they do state they are requirements.

Outside of functionality, manufacturers do require the use of grounded outlets and even the installation of grounded outlets if they are not available.

52

And either one of those appliances can be plugged into a three prong receptacle that has no equipment grounding conductor that is GRCI protected without violating any listing or labeling of that product and it will be being used in a safe and compliant manner.

The manufacturer cannot mandate that an electrical system be upgraded to have an EGC before it can be used.

What the manufacturer is doing is coverings their own butts and it is not a requirement that is included in the listing and labeling of the product.

Why do you think that 250.130 and 406.4(D) are included in the electrical code? Maybe you think that the manufacturer has more authority than the NEC, I don’t know.

53

Focus, focus.

This is all just a response to your statement that manufacturers don’t require grounded receptacles in their literature.

They do.

54

Focus, Focus
The manufacturers cannot REQUIRE an equipment grounding conductor period.

I suppose the last paragraph of the thrid page of this link is also enforcable
http://www.warmingsystems.com/Cable%20Set%20Install%20Instructions.pdf

Edited to ask

If I was living in a home that was built using a two wire system and replaced my two wire receptacles using a three wire receptacles that are GFCI protected are you saying that it would be a violation to use one of the appliances you have posted on this old two wire system?

If your answer is yes tell us how this can be enforced and why is 406.4(D) allowed in the NEC?

If you answer is no then where is the requirement?

55

OK, I will ask this. Without being provided with a UL White Book quote of the appropriate section for the device in question, how is one to know what is a listing and labeling vs a recommendation? The White Book only tells some of the construction specs like material thicknesses etc.Then you would also have the issue where the appliance was manufactured and tested with a grounded cord.

Another issue is where UL only performs the test as designated by the manufacturer and no other additional uses or conditions are tested. I would use the example of a conduit pipe coupling. The coupling is a listed EGC when installed to connect sections of conduit. Use the same fitting to join a conduit to a piece of flex and UL says the fitting has not been investigated for that usage.

56

Jim

These are some good questions that have me looking at this thread in a different light.

First let me clear up the fact of testing. It is the National Recognized Testing Lab that sets forth the type of test to be done on a product. This product will be tested according to the purpose the manufacturer says the product is to be used. An example will be sliding glass doors and windows. The testing for sliding glass doors takes into consideration a child in a walker but the window will not. Both are glass.

In the example you gave of the coupling and the EGC it would be the flex that would have to conform to the requirements of the EGC not the coupling. If the flex does not meet the requirements then the use of the coupling to transition would not be allowed. There would be no need to test the coupling as a transition device if the flex would not meet the requirement therefore no testing is done.

Any appliance that comes with an EGC in the cord of the appliance will have exposed metal somewhere on that appliance. There are some appliances that have exposed metal that do not have an EGC included with the cord such as toasters. Why not toasters? It is a safety issue. Should the user of the toaster try to remove a piece of toast using a metal utensil while holding the toaster would complete a path from hot to the metal and should the metal be connected to the neutral in the service the person would be completing a conductive path and dead therefore no requirement for an EGC.

Both the National Electrical Code and the International Code Council has provisions for the use of a three wire appliance on a system that has no EGC. This can be achieved by the use of a GFCI device that protects the three wire receptacle in the absence of the EGC. These provisions allow the use of a three wire appliance without an EGC therefore anything wrote in the installation instructions that it must be connected to a receptacle that has an EGC is nullified. The use of a three wire receptacle without an EGC is allowed as long as it is GFCI protected.

The instructions that the appliance be connected to a receptacle that has an EGC is taking into consideration that the system already has an EGC installed. It is not there to say that the appliance has to have an EGC or it can’t be used on a system that has no equipment grounding conductor that has been installed in a compliant manner (GFCI protected as outlined in the NEC)

If the appliance that has an EGC is allowed to be used on a compliant installation that has no EGC in that system then how can the manufacturer mandate that this appliance cannot be used on the older systems that have no EGC within the system? They can’t.

There has been many times over the years that I have been asked to do an evaluation of an electrical system in older homes. Should there be three wire receptacles that have no EGC but are protected by a GFCI device I don’t have but one choice. I refer to section 406.4(D) of the National Electrical Code and report that the system is in compliance with the codes in effect and therefore no safety hazard.

Does this mean that the user can now use an appliance that has an EGC in the supply cord on this system? Most certainly. Well what about all that talk in the instructions of the appliance about a receptacle that is grounded? It is covered by the use of a GFCI which is far safer than an EGC.

Now let’s take everything into consideration concerning this recommendation to only use a receptacle that has an EGC attached. The codes allows the use of GFCI on receptacles that have no EGC so does this now mean that the use of an appliance that comes with a three wire cord is a violation? No.

As to seeing the installation instructions that are included with the listing and labeling of any appliance these Standards can be obtained for a piece and they are not cheap.
It would be much easier to just use the codes in effect at the time of the installation to make an inspection. The codes allow the installation of three wire receptacles without an EGC therefore any appliance that contains an EGC in the supply cord can be safely used on this systems that are in compliance with the codes.

So the question stills remains about a manufacturer mandating the use of a grounded receptacle for their use. The answer is so simple that we tend to overlook it. For future reference see 406.4(D) of the National Electrical Code.
(D) Replacements. Replacement of receptacles shall comply with 406.4(D)](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011009172#70-2011:id02011009172)(1) through (D)(6), as applicable.
(1) Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where a grounding means exists in the receptacle enclosure or an equipment grounding conductor is installed in accordance with 250.130©](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011004494#70-2011:id02011004494), grounding-type receptacles shall be used and shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 406.4©](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011009166#70-2011:id02011009166) or 250.130©](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011004494#70-2011:id02011004494).
(2) Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where attachment to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (D)(2)(a), (D)(2)(b), or (D)(2)©.
(a) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another non–grounding-type receptacle(s).
(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
© A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.

57

Marked “No Equipment Ground.”
Marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.”
Very Interesting.

58

You say you provide training to others, but make it sound as if this is the first time you have heard these terms?

59

No Jim just as an observation as the thread I mentioned on GFCI. I have yet to see them do it right here.
I do not get into discussions with Electrical and did teach the basics. I in no way ever told anyone I am up to any Professional level in this area.
I did have a Master Electrician in my class and a Technical drafter Electrician.
Both of them are working doing Electrical work for other companies.
BTW I still stand on my comments and have asked the AHJ.
Even the boxes have labels in them.

60

Do you plan on elaborating or are you just adding to your post count?

Just what do you find so interesting?

What I find to be interesting is how some folks think that they are doing one thing while the whole time they are doing something entirely different. That to me is very interesting.

So please elaborate on what you find very interesting.