Originally Posted By: fbartlo This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
be a good grounding electrode conection for the panel. I would have had to tear into walls and/or break up concrete to find out visually.
The only way I could think to test the integrity of the ground would involve disconnecting the ground wire and testing the voltage between a hot wire in the panel and the disconnected ground wire, which I was obviously loath to do, even if the owner had OK'd it.
Aside from a few miswired outlets (non-grounded 3-hole, reversed polarity, etc.), the system was working fine, old as it was.
On my report I intend to state that there may or may not be a good ground for the panel, and recommend evaluation by an electrician to determine the status of the panel grounding.
The client and owner wanted me to diagnose the situation, but I essentially told them I don't dismantle working equipment.
Any other ideas or recommendations on how to handle this sort of thing?
Is there a simple way to test it without disconnecting wires in the panel?
How would an electrician test it?
Do any of you have any brief, plain English wording you use in reports to describe why the panel grounding is important?
Originally Posted By: Jay Moge This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Frank,
be carefull how much information you give out either on your inspection or in words to your client. they may hold you to it and assume you to be an expert. your not, none of us are. and even if we were you'd never know it. your job is to be a generalist of all home systems, and visualy inspect them and based on your profesional opinion, give suggestions and recomendations. going too deep into any one system could come back and bite you in the a$$. emphasis on the $$. if it's not right, call it out and make your recomendation. if they are not happy do what i did. refund them their money and give one last piece of free advice. it went something like....."recomend hiring an electrician, plumber, roofer, foudation specialist, structural engineer, and profesional landscaper to evaluate total condition of the house." this was after a 2 week battle about how knowlagable an inspector is supposed to be. 
Originally Posted By: bking This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I just note that a rod is not visible. This is not a problem since it could be buried, or a ufer grounding system present. You also have a ethical duty to not stir up problems that you can not verify. If they ask you if it could be a problem, you say yes and recommend having an electrician with the proper tools to check the resistance. Does anyone know exactly how they actually check for proper ground? How do they get a reference ground to compare to? Seems like a rod would have to driven in to get a local reference.
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
Does anyone know exactly how they actually check for proper ground?
Our electrical company uses a meter designed for reading the resistance in a grounding system. The come in both ground contact versions and wrap around GEC methods.
They key here is from the panelboard should have a bare grounding wire leaving to either of the previous metioned grouning electrodes...about all you can do as a HI is visually verify this from the panel and if you can't do not report it......disclaim it and suggest that possibly a licensed electrician should review to verify a grounding system.
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bruce,
Ok....disclaimer...I do not work for the company I am posting this to...nor do I make anything on any sales. The link if for informational purposes only.
This is a cheap version of the probe style......others offered are wrap around the GEC style.....this is a cheap version some electrical contractors use to try and get past the 25 OHMS or less to ground....so they do not have to add another ground rod...but then the AHJ always MAKES us add a second ground rod anyway...lol[/url]
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: bking This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
The tester must use an internal calibration program based on typical soil resistance etc. since it has no real ground reference to measure and compare to. Those short probes in the ground do not pick up a true ground reference.
An engineer for a power co. told me that he was involved in grounding issues at one time and they found that true ground was about 25 or more feet down. I forget the exact number I just remember it was at least 25 ft. It makes a difference with the high voltage equipment.
Originally Posted By: rcooke This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
bking wrote:
The tester must use an internal calibration program based on typical soil resistance etc. since it has no real ground reference to measure and compare to. Those short probes in the ground do not pick up a true ground reference.
An engineer for a power co. told me that he was involved in grounding issues at one time and they found that true ground was about 25 or more feet down. I forget the exact number I just remember it was at least 25 ft. It makes a difference with the high voltage equipment.
This is not my job to check how good the ground is.
It is so different in various areas.
I do know in some places they can not establish a ground . ( all rock).
If the ground has high mineral content and a high moisture it could be very simple to get a good ground .
Another area that is very dry and sandy you might have a difficult time getting a ground .
I do my inspection, report what I find, and what needs repair, or further evaluation.
I also know many clients do little or nothing from what is reported.
Write hard talk soft miss nothing follow the SOP and try to stay out of court.
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
regardless it should be somewhere a HI does not venture.
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
For the purposes of safety bonding is more important than grounding. That is the real advantage of the Ufer system.
It is not really important that the whole house is at some theoretical “ground” potential, only that there are no significant gradients that can create a current path through the occupants or equipment. In a sand box like Florida there can be 20-30 volts difference between buildings when transients are present but as long as the stovetop, tile floor and faucet are at the same potential nobody gets hurt.
Originally Posted By: fbartlo This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
like to learn as much as possible, and appreciate the technical info.
This highlights the old dilemma we face of not wanting to miss anything important vs. not wanting to make a big deal out of nothing. To me, how to deal with it depends upon how much of a safety or major property damage issue might be there. Agreed, it's best to report what we see, explain briefly what it might mean, and leave it to the client to use the info as they see fit.
It's tricky when a situation is likely to be just fine, but there's enough that looks fishy to make you wonder if someone screwed things up somewhere. Plumbers are not necessarily good electricians (I can just hear the chuckles). In the above case, the red flag was the copper plumbing that was likely to be newer, with no ground connection. Here in Detroit, almost all 1950-1960 installations used a water pipe ground. In this case there was none visible, and just about all the pipes were visible. BUT ... no disconnected ground wire was visible, either.
Whatever the case, the client was satisfied with the inspection, so that's good.