Pigtail Copper to Aluminum

Originally Posted By: jgibbs
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I don’t see very much aluminum wiring. One of my inspections today had aluminum wiring pigtailed to copper with no-ox compound and standard wire nuts. This seems logical to me but I have no confidence that I am correct. I know with this group someone will be more than willing to tell me how wrong I am.


Originally Posted By: mboyett
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Everything you want to know about this and also a few things you probably don’t want to know can be found at: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/viewtopic.php?t=5720&highlight=pigtail



Mike Boyett


Capital City Inspections


Austin, Tx


www.capcityinspections.com

Originally Posted By: jgibbs
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Thanks Michael. I had read this entire post but I was hoping that there was an option with regular wire nuts. I should forget my logic and rely on instinct.


Thanks again


Originally Posted By: Joey D’Adamo
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It totally depends when the work was done. There was a time when most nuts were rated for Al-to-Cu use. Whether or not it’s unsafe really depends on who did it and how skilled they were.


I used to live in a place with really poorly installed aluminum wiring. No CO/ALR devices (ok .. one), a few AL/CU devices, and the rest were all copper-only devices. A few pigtails to copper using the wrong nuts and no paste.

Nothing failed, nothing ever got warm under use, and nothing ever looked close to melting or showed any signs of heat problems. And dont' get me wrong I ain't stickin up for badly installed AL wiring, or AL wiring at all. I was just thinking if you wanted to gauge the severity, it's a place to start. Certainly something showing signs of overheating is more severe than something that isn't, but in the case of AL, it's not worth playing games either way really.

While you SHOULD definately call it out for examination by an electrician (as with any solid AL wire), how serious it is depends on if you're seeing signs of overheating or not.

You may as well reccomend evaluation by an EC anyway as a precaution. With the debate over the purple nuts anyway, it's worth calling out in all cases.


Originally Posted By: whandley
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http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml03/03120.html


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Joey D'Adamo wrote:
There was a time when most nuts were rated for Al-to-Cu use.

It's my understanding that the purple Ideal #65 wire nuts are the only ones that are UL Listed for AL-CU connections. What other wire nuts are ya thinking about that had that UL 486C Listing?

Joey D'Adamo wrote:
You may as well reccomend evaluation by an EC anyway as a precaution.

I agree. I think any smaller gage AL branch wiring should be flagged as a Safety Concern/Hazard (depending on the age and circumstances). Even with the CPSC recommended COPALUM crimp connectors, some say that older AL wire can break and become a hazard just from being disturbed (unbending and re-bending).

I would probably red flag standard wire nuts used for AL-CU pigtails, due to debate/concerns even with the listed purple Ideal #65 connectors.


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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I think most problems with existing aluminum wiring are homeowner caused. If the wire was properly installed it is usually trouble free. It is when the original installer wasn’t following procedures 100% correct or Harry homeowner starts screwing with it that aluminum fails.


It is certainly a lot more unforgiving than copper and it does break easily.


From your stand point 15 and 20a aluminum wired circuits should certainly be flagged, just for information if nothing else.


Originally Posted By: Joey D’Adamo
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roconnor wrote:

It's my understanding that the purple Ideal #65 wire nuts are the only ones that are UL Listed for AL-CU connections. What other wire nuts are ya thinking about that had that UL 486C Listing?


The 3M scotchlocks used to be. According to this http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/alreduce.htm

But somewhere, I read that at one point (waay back) most connectors were thought to be acceptable for Al-to-Cu. I can't find it right now, but I intend to keep looking. I did a huge research project on Aluminum wiring last December; I'm sure i'll come across it again.

Here in Canada, the Marrette No. 63 and No. 65 are rated for Al-to-Al, and Al-to-Cu. Personally I trust those nuts about a million times more than the Ideal ones, because the specs are considerably better. They are rated to 150 Celcius, for one, and the spring specifications are better too. I have no idea about ratings/listings or availability of those nuts in the US, though. Data sheet just for fun: http://www.tnb-canada.com/en/catalogues/online/comresconstruction/pdf/c5/09_marrcat_e.pdf


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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) … and I understand they were never submitted for AL-CU connections. That should be a hint … and the use/acceptance of non-listed AL-CU connectors by an electrician/inspector puts them way out on a very thin limb.


Note that even the UL Listed Ideal connectors have special "recommended" procedures for use on "old technology" AL wire pigtails (abrading, pre-twisting, etc.), and it's not possible to determine if they were followed from an inspection. I understand there were issues with the Ideal connectors where those recommendations may not have been followed. Also, CPSC still considers wire nut pigtails a temporary repair, even with UL listed connectors and special procedures.

IMHO Make a note of any smaller gauge AL branch wiring (possible safety concerns and insurance issues), and also red flag anything other than the COPALUM or Ideal connectors. And whatever you do, DONT go beyond spot removals of covers to check for pigtails. You could actually cause a problem by disturbing the wiring ... ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

Just my opinion and 2-nickels ...


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Joey D’Adamo
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Well, the document I submitted does indicate that at one point 3M scotchlocks were listed, and then one year they did not resubmit for that listing and that was the end of it. The validity of the document obviously is subject to the same scrutiny that any internet publication would go through. So maybe it is false. I’m also pretty sure I read that at some point along the way almost every twist-on connector was thought to be OK for the application (I’m talking 25-30 years ago).


Now I am certainly NOT arguing that aluminum connections are unsafe, because I know that 95% of them are bound to fail if subject to high loads. What I am merely saying is that it may have been considered perfectly safe at the time when it was done if a professional did it.

Whether or not its safe today requires further evaluation, of course. My biggest concern would be that new residents to a house will load the system differently than it had been for years with other residents. All it might take is a Big Screen TV that the previous owners didn't have, or who knows what, to cause a high resistance connection to show itself.

So, of course, it should get checked out. And if I am wrong that ordinary connectors were never okay, then I retract that statement. But I'm pretty sure at one point they were okay, and while that doesn't guarantee they are still safe today, if it could be known for certain it wasn't done by a harry homeowner, then I would sleep sound in the house.

That's all I'm saying...


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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The reference is not necessarily wrong. At one time some twist-on connectors may have been listed and/or thought to be safe, until it was discovered that using them to connect CU pigtails to older AL wire might fry.


I understand thats part of the reason for the revised UL 486C standards around 1985, and that there were no twist-on AL-CU connectors listed under the updated standards until the introduction of the Ideal #65 around 1995 ... and that it remains the only UL listed AL-CU twist-on connector.

Even if a product/method meets industry standards and/or is thought to be safe at the time of installation, but then is later discovered to be a hazard or can't comply with updated standards, it's a red flag in my book and I wouldn't sleep well with that in my house.

Just my opinion and 2-nickels ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Joey D’Adamo
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Yeah for sure, you are right. Anything that doesn’t meet today’s standards is probably worth fixing. It does beg one really good question: Is a problem free (key phrase problem free) connection that no longer meets standards better off undisturbed or better off repaired? That’s a really tough question and I bet a lot of electricians make really tough judgement calls every day about that.


Any thoughts?

I know something very common here is a lot of AL wired homes have the old GE rocker style switches, and those were just ordinary switches with brass screws intended for copper wire (well, before the AL-CU or CO/ALR days). From what I have seen, they have mostly held up pretty good (likely the result of the relatively low load of light fixtures). But in this case are they better left alone or better replaced? Probably depends on if there are any signs of pre-existing damage/failure or not.


Originally Posted By: whandley
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http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml03/03120.html


I believe this link answers your questions. ![icon_idea.gif](upload://6VKizmOm2U7YYmfXNtFW4XTwFVy.gif)


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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The CPSC and industry experts agree that the really old AL branch wiring is a clear hazard (even with no signs of a current problem), and needs to be repaired with acceptable methods. Leaving it alone is like rolling the dice with your life on the line. It’s only a matter of time before ya roll snake eyes … icon_wink.gif


CO/ALR devices are not considered an acceptable installation/repair for really old AL wiring, and also wouldn't account for hard wired appliances and fixtures. The corrosion potential of different metals, which CO/ALR devices can help alleviate, is only part of the problem. A bigger issue is the very high expansion/contraction rate of the old AL wire, which tends to loosen connections.

One of the biggest reasons the COPALUM compression connectors is considered the only real permanent repair is the better ability to accommodate that high expansion/contraction movement of the old AL wire.


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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The only problem with the theory that aluminum wire is a time bomb is the lack of fires attributed to it in the last decade. You certainly have more statistical danger if you have a cube tap or an extension cord in your bedroom.


With the caveat that when an unqualified person starts "fixing" or otherwise disturbing aluminim your risk factor skyrockets.


Originally Posted By: Joey D’Adamo
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Greg Fretwell wrote:
The only problem with the theory that aluminum wire is a time bomb is the lack of fires attributed to it in the last decade. You certainly have more statistical danger if you have a cube tap or an extension cord in your bedroom.


There was an article in the newspaper here that said exactly the same thing. It even had a quote from the Chief Electrical Inspector saying there has never been any problems or complaints attributed to AL wiring that he's ever heard of in this city.

My last apartment was horribly wired in aluminum. As soon as I discovered it was aluminum I started looking around with a flashlight to see what I could see. They pretty much broke every rule in the book. There was only one CO/ALR device, a handful of old backstabbed CU-AL recepticles (with significant wire creep out of the wiring holes), and the rest were "Cooper" 50 cent devices from Rona/Revy. One of the outlets was pigtailed to copper, an obvious job by a non-electrician because every pigtail was red including the ground. And yet not a single sign of overheating. One outlet literally had 1/4" of wire under a screw terminal, and it was pretty mcuh just stuck in straight and not even wrapped around. This is stuff that would be unsafe even for copper. And yet nothing.. no signs of overheating or anything... Even vacuuming with a 12 amp Bissel for 30 minutes didn't make anything warm up noticibly and that's a considerable load for connections that poor.

I did try to address these issues with building management, but they didn't seem to care, and so at the end of the lease we left.

I didn't like it and I sure as hell didn't feel safe because of it, but the fact that in something wired so poorly I couldn't find not even one sign of overheating, over time I just let it go.

I still think for liability purposes, inspectors should ALWAYS call it. They say Aluminum wire is 55 times more likely to cause a fire than copper, but copper is almost nil likely to cause a fire if properly installed... 55 times almost 0 is still pretty low. <-- a stretch maybe, but only illustratively.

My father in law is a sparky, and I told him everything that was wrong with our old apartment, and even showed him pictures, and he said "Don't worry Joey, your place is not going to burn down." I figure if he can be an electrician and see and hear about huge electrical violations with aluminum wire, and still not be too concerned about his daughter living there, well, it can't be that bad.

Right? Well it doesn't matter anymore really, because we don't live in a place with Aluminum branch circuits anymore.

Oh... (edit/addition)... I'm not stickin up for AL branch wiring.. I don't trust it and never will. I'm just merely stating how my experience living with the wire was. Although I have no bad thoughts at all about 8ga+ aluminum wire, especially the NUAL stuff from Alcan. Good stuff.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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[Referenced by Will also]


There is also a pretty good recent article on the NFPA/NEC Digest site concerning fires and hazards associated with older home wiring systems ... including the continued risks of AL wiring ... CLICK HERE

I would hope with the increased trend towards having a home inspected prior to a sale, and insurance company demands to repair/replace older AL wiring systems, that the hazardous installations are identified and repaired over time ... and thus the overall risks/incidents significantly reduced.

But home fires due to AL wiring still occur, and is still a very serious problem in my opinion. The risks may actually increase as those wiring systems push 40 years in age.


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong