Originally Posted By: pbolliger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hey Joe,
One set of service conductors feed two separate service panels. Question of grounding:
Do you have to run separate service ground conductors to a ground point from both service panels or is it acceptable for one panel to run a ground to the second panel ( ground connection) and "share" the same ground conductor? The ground point in the house which is this case is a cold water pipe.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
You may see the water line as the sole grounding electrode in older homes. As long as nobody slipped some plastic in there somewhere you should do fine but since utilities don’t use metal much anymore and it is easy for a homeowner to install, or have installed, a filter, water softener or other plastic the code now requires a backup electrode. That is typically a rod.
Ufer is certainly the best electrode but not very common in older construction. These days in Florida it is the defacto standard to install it at footer time. The footer inspection will include looking for it. This is generally just a #5 rebar, stubbed up into the wall. The masons will leave a hole to keep it accessible and the electrician puts on a mud ring and a cover before stucco.
They may have to chip it out after stucco but it is there.
Originally Posted By: pbolliger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Thanks guys.
I am familiar with the rest but in Chicago , a grounding rod is not used in "old" neighborhoods homes.
Each area can be different with respect to accepted practices. I have some very old wiring and equipment that I am going to donate to a Home inspection school for reference.
Now when "i-leck-tric-ity" came about many systems brands and methods were used around these here parts. Some of the "lead" cold water pipe that is buried under the basement slabs is generally accepted for a ground point.
In fact in one Chicago suburb a grounding rod is not allowed. Every jurisdiction has it's own scheme and that can drive an inspector nuts..
Jeffrey the service panels are located in the same building. I forgot to mention that. Considering that concrete is a continuous path between different building on the same lot I would have not even asked this question question.
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
Section 2581 (1940 NEC) Water Pipe. A continuos metallic underground water piping system shall always be used as the grounding electrode where such piping system is available.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: Jay Moge This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
iv’e always been told (by commercial building inspectors) that if the water pipe is used as a groud it must A)be on the main close to the entrance point and B) the service pole to the drop must also have a ground spike and cable in tact.
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
pbolliger wrote:
Hey Joe,
One set of service conductors feed two separate service panels. Question of grounding:
Do you have to run separate service ground conductors to a ground point from both service panels or is it acceptable for one panel to run a ground to the second panel ( ground connection) and "share" the same ground conductor? The ground point in the house which is this case is a cold water pipe.
Not too many grounding rods in the Chicago area.
pbolliger
Each enclosure requires a:
GEC THAT CAN BE RUN TO THE ELECTRODE, OR THAT CAN BE TAPPED TO ONE MAIN GEC.
Sizing gets a little tricky.
THIS IS A COMMON PRACTICE AND USE OF THE GEC AS YOU DESCRIBE IS NOT PERMITTED.
PS: Where are the "service entrance conductors", I mean those that form the drip loop, and connect to the service drop to complete the service point?
Also, how old it the service?
A picture would be helpful. Send the large file to me, or post the small file here so it can be "inspected" by the Electrical super guy!  
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I am not sure it is that tricky. The ground electrode conductor is sized by 250.66 based on the service conductor size. (some “made” electrodes can use a smaller size) It can be attached to the grounded conductor of the service anywhere from the service point to the service disconnect. Typically this will happen in the service disconnect enclosure, meter enclosure or in the gutter where the service entrance is tapped on a multi-occupancy service. It is not necessary that the GEC be connected to each occupant’s disconnect enclosure.
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Greg:
I answered his specific question, and I agree with you too, but let's not confuse these poor young fellas with a bunch of silly numbers and "Code Stuff" they only need to be sure that they will not get in trouble so they can avoid being sued.
Some areas will not allow the GEC to be installed in the Meter Socket Enclosure, and that's always worth some review of the utility rules.
I do agree, however, that language in our field is not understood by the HI community.
Originally Posted By: jbushart This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jtedesco wrote:
I do agree, however, that language in our field is not understood by the HI community.
Joe,
Building Electrical Inspectors communicate with Master Electricians. Home Inspectors communicate with 25 year old couples buying their first home. Even if we memorized the NEC and could quote each FPN, backward, it would have no relevance in the way we prepare our reports and communicate with our clients.
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Jim:
Not talking about HI and 25 year old couples, talking about the HI and the AHJ, language is a dead giveaway when discussing the most important part of the inspection.
Please don't let this change your views, and ask some of the veterans with an electrical background what I mean.
PS: Take a break and say hello to your wife! 
Anyway, I need more info. This is only my second full summer as a home inspector but I have yet to feel a need to impress an AHJ with my glossary.
I mean this as a real question and I have no hidden agenda or point to make. What is in it for me, as a home inspector, to impress an AHJ with my electrical language - as opposed to plumbing, structure, HVAC or any other feature of the home? Am I missing something?
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Jim:
I understand, please send me a copy of the portion of a detailed report where you discuss what is wrong with the electrical system, so that I can make some comments.
I read many reports, and although the HI may know what they mean the electrician may not, besides if the HI talked the same language maybe the electrician would show a HI more respect.
This offer is open to anyone who would care to take advantage of some advice form the Electrical Super Guy!
Jim: What did you do before last summer? 
Originally Posted By: aleleika This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jtedesco wrote:
Jim:
I read many reports, and although the HI may know what they mean the electrician may not, besides if the HI talked the same language maybe the electrician would show a HI more respect.
Joe...when you said that, it was like a light bulb going off...you are absolutely right...There probably is a communication barrier that exists there.
When an HI reports on a possible problem with the electrical (for example) and an electrician is called in for further evaluation...9 times out of 10 the electrician is handed a copy of the summary page from the inspector which was sent to the lawyer which in turn was sent to the sellers agent. It probably would be a good idea if we were all working on the same page somewhat. ?!?
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
aleleika wrote:
jtedesco wrote:
Jim:
I read many reports, and although the HI may know what they mean the electrician may not, besides if the HI talked the same language maybe the electrician would show a HI more respect.
 Joe...when you said that, it was like a light bulb going off...you are absolutely right...There probably is a communication barrier that exists there.
When an HI reports on a possible problem with the electrical (for example) and an electrician is called in for further evaluation...9 times out of 10 the electrician is handed a copy of the summary page from the inspector which was sent to the lawyer which in turn was sent to the sellers agent. It probably would be a good idea if we were all working on the same page somewhat. ?!?
Thanks Dan:
You have hit the nail on the head! Lawyer speak and electrical speak and in front of a jury!
Do you want to give some examples of the language, or send samples of any reports, or I guess I could search some one the net and comment about them.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
If you really want to get some electrical training contact your local IAEI chapter (find them on IAEI.ORG)
They usually have local seminars given by nationally known instructors like Joe. A 2005 code update course is usually a good place to start and they are making the rounds now. Typically this is about 60-80 bucks a day.
You can get a primer about electrician speak by reading the glossary in article 100. There are also definitions in some of the articles but these are usually not the ones that affect residential. Article 680 (pools, spas and fountains) is one exception.
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Good advice Greg, I have a free 6 month membership in IAEI and will send it to the first person who can tell me the name of the person responsible for many of the current terms used to identify electrical systems, especially grounding and bonding.
Originally Posted By: pbolliger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Ok let see Joe… Or should I call you Captain Current now??
Andre' Ampere for "current terms". " I" yay yay" when he found out by playing with EMF or 1x10 to the 23 joules past a point in one second.
Oh Howard Hertz for " I just hit my finger with a hammer" (nothing to do with electricity..
That guy Henry for the number of turns a "coil" has.
The guys from Star Trek for "Phaser" as in Phaser angles.
And the movie "Airplane" for what is your "vector " Victor as in Vectors and phaser angles...
   
Am I close??
If you guys can tell me what device(s) runs on 0 Hertz then I will be very impressed.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I will give you a hint, the author was a PE and much of the original material in “The” grounding book that bears his name was in his book called “Designing Electrical Distribution Systems for Safety”, published in 1966.