Question..

Originally Posted By: Del Fonik
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Hello! A problem started today, and I’m not sure on the severity of it, or what I should do. I noticed the water level in the toilet bowl was low, so I proceeded to flush the toilet. The bowl filled up very high with water, and then it flushed. Before the bowl filled though, a big bubble came from toilet, and I felt the floor vibrate around my feet. I tried using a plunger to see if maybe something was clogged, but nothing happend. Can anyone recommend something for me please? I was thinking about getting some Drain-o, but if it won’t help, then I’d rather not! Thank you for your time.


Originally Posted By: Aaron
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I would highly recommend a “stool rod” Its like a snake, but its for a toilet. Home Depot has them. Also, if this toilet is in the basement, you might have a main drain problem. If its on the main level and the basement is fine, I’m betting its a BAD clog in the toilet and you’ll need that stool rod.


Originally Posted By: cbottger
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Sounds as if you experiencing a vent problem and if that is the case drano will not help you. It could possibly be improperly vented but would have presented itself before now if this is a older home. I was performing an inspection on a two story home once and the bathroom upstairs overflowed when I flushed it. It literally burped for air back thru the commode and sprayed water everywhere. What a mess. What the plumbers determined was that squirrels had been dropping pecans down the vent on the roof and the vent was completely stopped up. Rodded out the vent placed some screen wire over the opening and solved the problem. Long story but true.



Don’t argue with an idiot someone watching may not be able to tell the difference.

Originally Posted By: jschwartz1
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DRAINO eats the porcelain finish. When the finish goes, you will have cracks, then imagine what you will have on your hands. Never put chemicals down a toilet.



Jay Schwartz


Coast To Coast Home Services, Inc


www.Coasttocoasthomeservices.com


Southeast Florida NACHI Chapter - VP www.floridanachi.org


NACHI - Legislative Committee Member


MAB - Member

Originally Posted By: Aaron
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Another possibility is if its an old toilet, the “jets” for the toilet might be clogged and corroded. It is a slim possibility, but its happened. I put some San Teen formula. Its in a white bottle with the front having a green label on it. There might be some other bottles that have different labels. I’m not sure. You can pick it up at any local plumbing shop usually. I’m not sure if Home Depot has it. You pour it in the overflow tube in the toilet. I’d say 1/2 of the bottle, let it sit for a minute, then flush it a few times. This will clean out the jets and the main jet that you want to clean out is that one small hole in the bottom of the bowl. You can try and poke a coat hanger in there, also…


Again, this is just one small possibility.


Originally Posted By: Dean Call
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Water closets (toilets) are made of china, not porcelain and most chemicals won’t hurt the china finish.


Hydrochloric acid is the best thing use to clean calcium & mineral deposits from the trapway and jets when a water closet starts to flush sluggishly.

Sounds more like a partially plugged soil pipe to me.


Originally Posted By: John Clayton
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What do you mean Toilets are china and not porcelain?


China is porcelain, unless you are confusing it with what some would commonly call a "porcelain finish" of a cast iron or steel sink, which is slightly different. They are both ceramic. Toilet manufacturers use several different terms as to what their toilets are made of, but usually they will be one of those three words (porcelain, china, cermic) out of which they are very much the same.

Yes hydrochloric / muriatic acid is a great way to clean deposits from a toilet, but it will also completely ruin the finish. Especially if you spent a hundred extra dollars for a finish such as a Toto Sanagloss finish. The acid will etch the finish rendering it useless. Allowing it to stain easier, deposits to build up faster, and clog easier since the new 1.6 gallon designs use the high polish glaze of the trapway to help them flush.

Yes it does sound more like a partially plugged soil pipe


Originally Posted By: aslimack
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Go to Home Depot and get yourself the $12.95 Plumbing book. The $13.00 will be well spent. I would try a mechanical means over chemicals. How old is the home?


Adam, A Plus


Originally Posted By: dhartke
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Adam


I’m going with you on this one. Everyone means well with posting their preferred remedy but here we have opposite opinions on the use of corrosive (acid) chemicals. I don’t know which is correct but please do not experiment with acids. Maybe the over-the-counter ones are diluted to a safe level, but then there is also the temptation to mix with other chemicals.


Thread drift. I have extensive experience with large volumes of highly concentrated acids in an industrial setting. My least favorite was hydrofluoric acid. One spot on the bare skin the size of a half dollar, if untreated was certain death and it did not give a burning feeling like most acids. We had tanker trucks delivering it to us almost daily. How do you spell RESPECT?


Originally Posted By: aslimack
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David, How old is the home?


Adam, A Plus


Originally Posted By: rhinck
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Don’t forget the possiblity of a dead animal in the atmospheric pluming vent on the roof.




Rick


Originally Posted By: Dean Call
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Hydrochloric acid is sold under many different brand names for the specific purpose of de-liming water closets “Calcisolve” is just one name that comes to mind of one I’ve been putting in CHINA “toilets” for over 39 years.


I've never EVER had any signs of any damage to even one toilet in all those years.
In fact the vitrified clay china glaze finish will look like brand new again.

Naturally handling any chemicals with care goes without saying and it is corrosive but nothing to scared of if handled properly.
I will admit, years ago when wooden toilet seats had chrome plated hinges screwed onto them I have seen a little corrosion on the wood screws a couple of times.

I take one quart of water out of the bowl, slowly pour one quart of Calcisolve down through the over flow tube so it goes down through the rim jets on it's way to the trap-way where it brings the water level back up to normal, close the toilet seat lid, and sometimes crack open a bathroom window.
The next day the toilet will be brand new again.
However in my area there are no porcelain water closets, just Vitrified clay china.


But hey, don't do it the easy way if you don't want to, don't matter to me. I'm just sharing my almost 40 years of repair plumbing experience,, take it or leave it. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Anyway, like I said sounds like a plugged soil pipe to me.


Originally Posted By: John Clayton
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Yes there are many chemicals on the market specificly for removing water deposits and scale from various products including toilets, But calci-solve isn’t one of them. Although I too have used calci-solve, strip, and several other products over the years to clean toilets, they do not list toilet cleaning as one of their intended purposes. http://www.nycoproducts.com/PDFLIT/CALCI-SOLVE.pdf It is a high concentrated acidic cleanser and is not for use on exposed “finishes” but more for concealed areas and equipment such as inside lining of pipes, orfices, and filters. It will clean a toilet, but it needs to be diluted (as mentioned by leaving some water in the bowl) and shouldn’t be used by the average DIYer that has no experience with chemicals. Here is something that should be used by the average home owner or DIYer http://www.restoreproducts.com/bathroom_lime_scale_remover.html


Sure cleaning a dirty toilet with acid will always make it look much better than before and no visible damage will be noticed. But when you have a wife that keeps the toilet spotless and cleans it daily she will notice otherwise. She will see how there is a different texture to the finish from the water level and below where it has been etched and also notice that it stains more frequently and is harder to remove those stains. Of course to me it just looks nice and white and clean. Make a call to Toto, Mansfield, American Standard, Kohler, Crane, Briggs.... and ask if it is ok to use concentrated acid cleaners in their toilets. They don't even want you to use a strong detergent to clean it but rather just mild dishsoap or glass cleaner.

While some people may only need to crack a window when using an acidic cleanser, it is best to follow the manufacturers instructions and take proper precautions. http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/EHSRM/CAMPUS/UN/ea031999.html even if it is a diluted or low strenght acid. I remember when I was just getting started in the buisness and watching my father and other plumbers use the chemical drain openers in bathrooms. The acid fume cloud hovering waist high and using no protection. And they wonder why they can hardly smell anything these days. Acid fumes can cause great damage short and long term.

As I said before, China is porcelain. So yes toilets are vitreous china, but that also means they are porcelain as china is a type of porcelain. To say there are no porcelain toilets only vitreous china toilets would be like saying there are no plastic drainage pipes only PVC drainage pipes. http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=China&x=0&y=0


Originally Posted By: dhartke
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John said


The acid fume cloud hovering waist high and using no protection. And they wonder why they can hardly smell anything these days. Acid fumes can cause great damage short and long term.



Yes. I smell almost nothing and taste very little but at least the constant nose bleeds have stopped.


Originally Posted By: Dean Call
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Well Like I said I was just sharing my experiences of 40 years of repair plumbing and anyone can take it or leave it, don’t matter to me.


Sorry, I guess I was mistaken when I thought Professional advice might be appreciated here. I won't make that mistake again. ![nachi_sarcasm.gif](upload://6HQh6KbNiD73gqTNQInjrR2zeJw.gif)

I've certainly cleaned my share of drains but have NEVER used any chemicals to open a drain so about all I know about DRAINO is, it has made a mess many times before I arrived on the job.


No sense in arguing BUT I'll say it just one more time, NEVER EVER has any toilet ever been damaged by doing it the way I do it, NOT EVEN ONE in almost 40 years! I could show you toilets that are older than I am and still look like new after I have done the above more than once in the last 40 years.

Actually I was just replying to the comment "Never put chemicals down a toilet" which is false advice posted and I can prove it!


Originally Posted By: dhadler
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Don’t let anyone else’s opinion’s, stop you from offering yours. We like to hear them all…we can all learn something from others experiences. Especially from those who have had many years in that particular trade.


Sometimes when you get more that one professional opinion it differs from the other, but that’s OK. The more we see, the more we learn.


THANKS for all the input guys ![icon_exclaim.gif](upload://kW92MliyHA8ygoXI0UsgtBSn4ZO.gif)


--
Darrell Hadler
Five Star Home Inspections
Medicine Hat, Alberta CANADA

Originally Posted By: John Clayton
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No you was not mistaken, Proffesional advice is always welcome. By all means continue to share your 40 yr experience.


This is a message / discussion board and as it stated "Remember, debate is not only welcomed it is encouraged" so even though your advice is appreciated, doesn't mean it should go without question or debate. As we are all capable of learning something new here. Even if a person has a great deal of experience that doesn't mean they aways give complete or thorough advice and sometimes it should be questioned.

Glad you do not use chemicals for drain cleaning as my employees and myself do not use them either since I've started my own business. However my previous employer was BIG on chemicals and pushed them hard. I also clean my fair share of toilets with strong acids with no ill effects (except new toilets with special finishes such as sanagloss) when done properly and as you said by diluting them with the water in the bowl as I also do. But I never offer or sale those chemicals to my customers for their own use, as when used incorrectly they will damage finishes. So to offer advice to clean anything with 30% hydrochloric acid without complete instruction can end up with damaged property and pesonal injury. That is why I would only recommed the use of something off the shelf specificly for cleaning toilets for use by a homeowner. As you mentioned about the mess with Draino... not all people naturally have the common sense to be using any chemicals much less ones 3X stronger than your average hardware store drain cleaner.

PS, I do use chemicals for drain maintenance, it is for use in keeping drains and lift stations clear of sludge and grease build up and are natural enzymes not acid.


Originally Posted By: whandley
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I don’t think China is a type of porcelain. Its all porcelain. They


simply refer to fine porcelain flat wear as “China” because porcelain or any ceramic ware, like porcelain was first produced in the country of China. Find the nastiest, dirty, backed up toilet and pour in one gallon


of standard pool chlorine, wait a few hours and check it out. icon_idea.gif


Originally Posted By: John Clayton
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You are correct Will.


You are absolutely correct in the use of the word china as it is short for chinaware or china dishes in that context. These days anything hard and shiny that goes on the dinner or coffee table most people will call china no matter what it is made of. I shouldn't have said it was a type, but more a catagory or a description of a type of porcelain. There are many types of porcelain and while most can be considered china, others would not be. To break porcelain down into two very general types, there are hard and soft porcelains. Calling the porcelain china would cover most of the hard porcelains, as that is the kind that was first developed in China. However over the next 900 years or so the Kings of Europe and the middle east were busy trying to figure out the recipe for this china, but all they kept coming up with was a soft porcelain (which most potters would not consider china). Finally in the early 1700s someone in Europe used some kaolin clay and made thier first hard porcelain or china outside of China if you will. That is how it was taught to me when I studied art history anyway. Its been a couple of ten years since I got my degree, so who knows how much of that came from my imagination and not memory

Ok i'm done, thought this was about someones toilet not flushing properly.... I believe it got a little sidetracked.