Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
To all concerned,
Maybe you already knew this but it is common in older homes I inspect to find multiwire circuits, meaning that two breakers share the same neutral. Typically you find this in 240 volt appliances but sometimes you find that the circuits are actually seperated into two entirely different circuits and are powered by two entirely different breakers which is allowed by the NEC (they do not have to be tied together in this case).
While according to the NEC this is ok but I always inform the client that if he intends to work on the panel to be certain the circuit is not multiwired which he will certainly find out very quickly if he disconnects the neutral wire without turning off both breakers.
It is fairly simple to find out if the panel has multiwired circuits present. Look around the knockouts for three wire with ground entering in the panel and count them. Now count the number of double pole breakers in the panel. If they match chances are you do not have any that are multiwired. If they don't be on the lookout for them.
I really frown upon this in a residential panel. Bob Vila makes everything look so simple everyone is starting to think they can do it themself.
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Good post, Joe
But remember, the NEC says that properly wired circuits with shared neutrals are okay to do. I dont like to see them either, for the fact that a homeowner can shut down "Circuit A" and still get knocked on his keyster from voltage and current on that shared neutral from "Circuit B". Informing the client of this hazard is paramount. I haven't even gotten to the part about if the circuits share the same hot leg on the panel. This situation is a definite no-no. You're right aboit looking for the three-wire with ground cable, or 3-wire without a separate ground if the cable is armor sheathed (BX).
The scary thing is when the neutral and hot leg are spliced and continue on at some point elsewhere in the house. Like if the cable goes to the kitchen, and then the second circuit and its shared neutral go on to a string of receptacles in the dining room or living room. Sloppy as hell... but legal to do. Go figure...
I agree with you. I don't like it either... I always point it out, though not as a defect. Did it the other day...
Originally Posted By: jremas This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
The only purpose of a shared neutral is to save money by saving cable pulls and labor. I used it all the time in the industrial setting, BUT I am completely against it for residential useage. No way, when I wired homes, it was not even a thought. Another angle on this is: If they are saving money on the electrical by using shared neutrals, then where else did they cut corners??? It would make me look a little deeper at the rest of the house. Sounds to me like cheap construction.
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Jeff,
I could not agree more! The sad part here is that multiwire circuits in the residential setting are zinging electricians too. For the few bucks you save this is a situation I really frown upon in a residence.
The question here is not can we, it is should we. The answer is NO. Sorry but Bob Vila is making too many experts because they watched his show once, now they figure they can do it themselves. People are going to get hurt with this one.
Joe F.
That makes for more than sloppy...it is downright dangerous! But as you said, still legal.
BX? MC? Is that something they only use in NY? HE HE HE 
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Igor,
I'm a bit less confrontational. It's not my job to belittle the homeowner. After all, they may use you to inspect the houst their planning to buy. No, I never point out they that were S**T HEADS for doing a poor job.
I do let them talk and point out things to me. This technique is better than any tool you could purchase. They'll actually TELL you where to look for the defects. They'll TELL you the corners they cut, the money they saved, the advice they got, and the challenges they faced. They may even tell you they never got a permit...
I call out each think after seeing it for myself. I never belittle them for trying....
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Igor,
ROTFLMAO....It takes a six pack a day to be considered a moderate user!  If you take me for example, I have 8 kids so it takes one beer a day for each kid to numb you to the stupidity of your younger years!
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe F.
That would depend on how poor the work was. After all, I am not one to sugar coat things that are serious issues and electrical just happens to fall into that catagory.
Its not like if the guy messes up the concrete patio, you can rip that out and start over, bad electrical work burns houses down and kills people. Just my thoughts!
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe,
I don't sugar coat anything when it comes to safety. You and I both saw a home which was an electrical disaster waiting to happen. I doubt that even you, as diplomatic as I'm sure you can be at times (he he), would tell the homeowner, in the middle of an inspection, that the work he had done was horrible. You didn't even say that to the buyer. I remember what you DID say, how calm and professional you were, and how you stuck to facts, not conjecture. You kept everything in perspective. Your duty was to the prospective buyer, and in my opinion, did a really good job. THAT's all I am saying...
Its HOW the message is delivered which sometimes makes the difference. Even when a homeowner makes a comment if he sees me writing something, I ignore it. I am the professional in this situation, not him. I'm in control. It's like being the only kid on the playground with a switchblade in your pocket. Keep it cool, keep it calm. The sellers agent may be a buyers agent who referrs you someday. You never know...
Belittling a homeowner over shoddy craftsmanship is unprofessional in my opinion, and serves no one. The worst electrical jobs, the worst carpentry jobs, the worst plumbing jobs can be repaired or replaced. At that point, many things pointed out become a matter of negotiation between the buyer and seller. When it's bad, we referr them to a qualified electrician/plumber/carpenter/engineer/etc. Its our job to point these defects out to our clients and nothing more. No one is forcing the buyer to buy. Nothing is forcing the seller to fix the work. A bruised ego on the homeowners part will still not make things better. What's next? Bitch-slapping them in the driveway for using the wrong nails on joist hangars?!!!
Come to think of it, that's not such a bad idea...
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe F.
Bitch-slapping, switchblade....we can tell you are from the big apple. HE HE HE 
You are absolutely correct, you should deal with everyone you meet with respect and dignity. After all, I was that stupid once.....or twice...or three....or four...Ah, what the he**, I am still that dumb!
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Igor,
I don't think Joe F. intended to offend you. I think he was saying that if you wanna keep busy and you are pissing people off, ya better think of a different way to say it. Besides, you may get another client out of the deal.
I try hard to treat everyone fairly, even the seller. My loyalty rests with my client (the buyer) but that does not mean we have to treat everyone else like dirt for trying to do it themselves.
He was saying just stick to the facts and recommend a professional come in to clean up the mess.
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I usually use something like this:
Written in last report:
"One item of note was the appearance of two branch circuits utilizing a shared neutral. A 14/3 (with grounding conductor) was observed connected to two breakers, marked kitchen and dining room, respectively. Each circuit uses a single, and shared, conductor for neutral, as well as a single and shared conductor for ground, which both return back to the electrical panel. While this installation method is acceptable in most jurisdictions, extreme caution must be used when performing service or modifications to either circuit. We suggest contacting a licensed and qualified electrical contractor should you want or need further evaluation."
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe F.
Thanks for the reply. I usually say something along the line of, "if you are going to do work on this panel, DON'T. This panel has a shared neutral and if you don't know what you are doing call someone that does".
Look at 408.21. It clearly prohibits this even if the lug is listed for more than one termination. This has been a UL listing requirement for a long time and has just been made into a code section since know one new it was there.
Posts: 49 | From: California | Registered: Feb 2003 | IP: Logged |
harold endean
Member
Member # 276
posted March 02, 2003 10:37 PM
You have to read the fine print that comes with the service panel. Most times it says, "You can install two or more “GROUNDING” conductors if they are the same size. That would be the bare ground wire. Not the neutral or the “GROUNDED” wire. I believe the 2002 NEC just help to clarify this issue. My state still goes under the 1999 NEC for now.
Posts: 8 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Morgan,
Thanks for the clarification on this issue. It has been a wild once since I started it. I also posted it to the Mike Holt forum and I was very surprised at the number of electricians that insist it is ok to place more than one neutral under a termination on the buss bar. It received a very large response over there indeed. Kinda scary these guys don't know you are not allowed to do it, some that do...and still do it anyway.