Should we recommend upgrades to GFCI outlets.

Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
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In another thread, discussing using BX and/or AC cable as grounds, people were discussing whether we should flag the issue as it is allowable by code.


So my question is whether or not we should recommend upgrades to GFCI outlets, because, after all, the non-GFCI meets code in place at time of construction.

Your thoughts?


--
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, Kentucky

www.b4uclose.com

Originally Posted By: jremas
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I do not recommend upgrading 2 prong receptacles to GFCI unless they are in areas that would require them. I do however let the client know that if they want to replace them with a 3 prong grounded receptacle they will have to run new wire or replace it with a GFCI and mark the receptacle as GFCI protected, ungrounded. Including any downstream receptacles they may have.






Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598

Originally Posted By: rking
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Erby,


I also recommend to my clients to have GFI's installed on the exterior, in kitchen's (within 3' of sink) and bathroom outlets. It is a safety issue as far as I am concerned. And laundry rooms/areas.

I also now make a point of telling my clients, soon after beginning my inspection that my job as a home inspector is to assume that everything with the house is perfect! And we all know that not everything is perfect.
It works well and seems to temper their expectatons accordingly!


--
Muskoka Home Inspections
"Wisdom is the Anticipation of the Consequences"
Steering Committee Member At Large

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Why not just tell them to replace the two prong receptacles with two prong receptacle. Tell them to GFCI protect at the water sources. Have an electrician run new grounded receptacles in places where they are going to place electronic equipment or computers.


Sounds like sound advice to me.

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: psabados
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I also recommend GFCI upgrading for homes to my clients. At water sources, exterior, around work shop zones and in the GARAGE.


About ten years ago, a co-worker of my wife's, co-workers son, was a college student and part time mover. They were off loading furniture and appliances. A chest type freeze was moved into the garage and the owner plugged it in, no problems, everything seemed fine.

After all the heavies were moved, they took a break. The owner passed around drinks and all went to the garage to rest and smoke. The son, jumped on the freezer to sit. As soon as he landed, the drink flew across the garage and he looked like he was dancing according to one of his friends. He was electrocuted on the spot, paramedics couldn't bring him back.

I never heard exactly what the cause was, the only info released was that the circuit breaker never tripped.

So yeah, if there's a needed for a little bit of extra safety precautions. I will recommend it. What's is worth to you $15.00 for GFCI or the cost of a life.

Paul


Originally Posted By: nlewis
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Robert,


What about recommending GFCI outlets in the garage, unfinished basement and at ALL kitchen counter outlets, no just the ones close to the sink.


Originally Posted By: rking
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Oops. I just missed the garage and the unfinished basement or crawlspace. I do recommend to my clients that GFI’s be installed in these areas. If it is not in front of me I just cannot see it icon_redface.gif


As for the other outlets in the kitchen, I personally do not think it is necessary. If you get the first one in line then every receptacle afterwards is protected (which I explain to my clients). Either that or I suggest putting in GFCI breakers or fuses at the panel.


--
Muskoka Home Inspections
"Wisdom is the Anticipation of the Consequences"
Steering Committee Member At Large

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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I usually tell clients that current best practice is to have GFCI’s in all mentioned locations, and discuss the logic behind it. I also suggest that as most home owners end up getting an electrician in to install extra outlets, new switches, new lights et al, that to have an electrician up grade the GFCI’s to current spec’s cost very little while he’s there doing the much more important cosmetic stuff icon_smile.gif


Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: rking
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Good Advice Gerry,


It is well worth it for most people to spend the extra little bit and get their "personal' touch on the house.


--
Muskoka Home Inspections
"Wisdom is the Anticipation of the Consequences"
Steering Committee Member At Large

Originally Posted By: jremas
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I think we got off topic here. We started talking about recommending GFCI for replacement of 2 prong ungrounded receptacles. Can we continue with that?


And,.since we are off topic, I ALWAYS recommend upgrade to GFCIs where required such as exterior, kitchen countertops, bathrooms, wet-bars, basements, etc. It is just a general recommendation for safety enhancement, I don't flag it like it is a violation or major safety problem.


--


Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598

Originally Posted By: nlewis
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Jeff,


Reread the original post. I don’t see the words two or prong anywhere in that post. Anyway, I think off-topic or drift is a good thing and makes for interesting reading. icon_wink.gif


Originally Posted By: jmcginnis
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Paul…


That’s a tragic story about the co-workers son but I can’t help wondering how he was killed or even shocked for that matter if he jumped up onto the freezer… how was he grounded? He should have had the same experience as a bird on an electrical wire… no effect… at least not until he got off and stepped on the concrete floor but even then with only 120volts, he would have had to be barefoot to be shocked…


As far as recommending GFCIs .. this is a good example of where as HIs we can utilize the NEC for information but not necessarily refer to it for enforcement.... we should recommend the use of GFCIs in all the areas that the code states but the recommendation should be for "safety" reasons and not because the NEC says so... every home should have been wired to code at the time it was built and therefore unless the local jurisdiction has passed some laws ... the home is code compliant for the time it was built... but the home may not be "SAFE"...IMHO... it is our job to recommend what is safe ... at times, what we recommend can even exceed the requirements of the NEC...


Originally Posted By: psabados
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clause, are there any other areas that I should concentrate on? Will be taking lots of pics for back-up and reference


Paul


Originally Posted By: John Davidson
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Does anyone have a good one page write-up on why GFCI’s are good that I can give my customers when I make that recommendation?



John Davidson


Morton, IL

Originally Posted By: sam jones
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John:


Safety is not a financial issue. It is a moral issue.
Ask your clients if they have a toaster on their countertop. Tell them it is ungrounded. (Two prongs) Now pull the old famous trick of sticking a knife into the toaster to clear out a piece of bread. Now your knife could come in contact with the hot contacts of the toaster ckt. If you touch anything else that is grounded you can be electrocuted. Many appliances are ungrounded. All countertop recepts should be upgraded and protected, and I dont care how many outlets are two or three prong. The same thing can happen if there is a fault inside the toaster and the enclosure becomes energized. Even if the toaster were grounded you can still be electrocuted. Grounding is not a substitute for gfci protection. Dont give your clients a sense of false security. Be safe cause its to late afterwards if your not. Remember, the rating of a ckt. breaker is much higher than the amount of current it takes to kill you. Sam


Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
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GFCI Boiler plate:


Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCI) were not present in the electrical system. GFCI are intended to shut down the electricity when a shock hazard starts in the electrical system.

There is a little electrician hiding in the GFCI. He watches the electricity come in over one shoulder and go out over the other shoulder. If there's no difference, he just sits there. If a difference is created, (you drop your shaver or hair dryer into the tub or sink), he immediately shuts down the electricity attempting to keep you from being shocked.

The problem with your little electrician is that he likes fishing. One of these days, he is going to get up and go fishing. When he does, he isn't coming back. The only way you're going to know if he is still in there is to test the outlet or breaker every 30 to 45 days.

Plug something into the outlet, hit the test button and then the reset button. If it shut down the power and then restored the power, the little electrician is still in there working for you. If it didn't, your little electrician has gone fishing. You need to get a licensed electrician to replace your little electrician.

Some of the currently required locations for GFCI's may not have been required when this house was constructed, however, I recommend that all outlets needing ground fault protection, as recognized by the newest national safety standards be upgraded. I recommend that this upgrade be completed by a licensed electrician.

FYI: The following dates indicate when nationally accepted minimum safety standards required GFCI protection. The local minimum safety standards may have adopted this protection at an earlier or later date.

DATES GFCI REQUIRMENTS WERE ESTABLISHED:
1971 Receptacles within 15 feet of pool walls
1971 All equipment used with storable swimming pools
1973 All outdoor receptacles
1974 Construction Sites
1975 Bathrooms, 120-volt pool lights, and fountain equipment
1978 Garages, spas, and hydromassage tubs
1978 Outdoor receptacles above 6ft.6in. grade access exempted
1984 Replacement of non-grounding receptacles with no grounding conductor allowed
1984 Pool cover motors
1984 Distance of GFCI protection extended to 20 feet from pool walls
1987 Unfinished basements
1987 Kitchen countertop receptacles within 6 feet of sink
1987 Boathouses
1990 Crawlspaces (with exception for sump pumps or other dedicated equip.)
1993 Wet bar countertops within 6 feet of sink
1993 Any receptacle replaced in an area presently requiring GFCI
1996 All kitchen counters ? not just those within 6 feet of sink
1996 All exterior receptacles except dedicated de-icing tape receptacle
1996 Unfinished accessory buildings at or below grade
1999 Exemption for dedicated equipment in crawlspace removed


--
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, Kentucky

www.b4uclose.com

Originally Posted By: chorne
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Hi Guys,


My thoughts, based on AHITI, I recommend changing existing outlets
in kitchen and bath within 6' of water, exterior and garage to GFCI
protected outlets.
That is my RECOMMENDATION to cover myself.
RD Inspections require them before the financing will go.
Just my opinion.

Carla


Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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Okay so when the GFCI trips to the deep freeze in my garage (that y’all advised me to install) and spoils all of my meat. I will come back to you for reimbursement which will include trips to Alaska (Arctic Char), Florida (Snook), Montana (Trout) and San Diego (Russelfish) icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif


Let's see....where else to I want to go?


--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi John,


you can get some realy nice beef from Argentina icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif


The freezer issue is a good one though, I for one would suggest that that be an expection to the GFCI rule, particularly in the cas of the older tyle freezers which tend to have a problem with GFCI’s. To be honest I for one would be much more concered about outlets in wet areas than in the garage.


Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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Argentina, now that’s interesting. I thought Texas was the only COUNTRY with good beef. icon_smile.gif


Doesn't England like own Argentina, or some little islands around there somewhere?


--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.