Originally Posted By: gbeaumont This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hi Robert,
here is my 2 pence worth for dissection.
Generally when I see and older property that still has ungrounded outlets, the wiring generally has been so hacked about and modified over the years, and normally has what would be considered to be an undersized supply for todays household needs, that I generally find myself putting in the report that the system should be evaluated by a licensed electrician.
On the very rare occasions that the system is in decent shape and has no obvious faults I still recommend that certain areas be brought up to modern safety standards eg GFCI's in wet areas.
Originally Posted By: dvalley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
The first fix uses Ground Fault Interrupters. There are two types of GFI available, one takes the place of the regular circuit breaker in the load center. The second type that is available takes the place of the standard outlet and replaces it with a special GFI protected outlet. These are commonly used in the kitchens and bathrooms of newer homes. Most people know them for their black and red reset buttons.
The second fix. In many older homes the outlet mounting box was grounded but the outlet was not, if this the case it is possible to use a jumper between the mounting box and the grounding screw on the new grounded type outlet. But, this type of ground may not be adequate for surge protectors.
The third most costly fix is to have an electrician rewire the entire house.
Hope this helps!
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
David you are very knowledgeable for a guy that looks to be 5 or 6 years old
That said I would like to ask about the second fix.
dvalley wrote:
The second fix. In many older homes the outlet mounting box was grounded but the outlet was not, if this the case it is possible to use a jumper between the mounting box and the grounding screw on the new grounded type outlet. But, this type of ground may not be adequate for surge protectors.
If we are talking about a home that is wired with the old NM cable with a grounding conductor you are correct and you may update this with a grounding type outlet.
Now the bad news, if this house is wired with the old style armored cable (BX with cloth covered conductors) you should not update to a grounding type receptacle.
This old BX armor will provide a ground path enough to make a plug tester show a proper ground.
But this old style BX has a nasty habit of not providing a adequate grounding path to trip the breaker or blow the fuse.
What can happen in the case of a "hot" to ground fault is that instead of the breaker tripping the armor heats up like a toaster element and starts a fire.
The newer armed cable "AC" has a small typically aluminum "shunt" conductor run inside the cable against the armor preventing this.
In short if it is old cloth covered BX it is not suitable for grounding, if it is newer AC with TW or THHN insulation it will have the shunting conductor and be suitable for grounding.
A NEC code reference would be 250.118 Types of Equipment Grounding Conductors. If you look at this list you will not find type BX cable on the list.
Originally Posted By: ekartal This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Would it not be beyond a normal inspection to try and determine whether a two-prong outlet needs to be upgraded or not? Speaking for myself, it sounds like potential trouble ( foot in mouth problem). I don’t think calling for a sparky here would be out of line.
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dave … The old 2-prong outlets do not always need to be upgraded, and in some cases you don’t want to install a GFCI outlet due to possible nuisance trips (e.g. refrigerators).
Bob ... we hashed out the BX issue here pretty good in a similar post a while back. Any further thoughts?
Lets say the wiring is good and all the required safety outlets are in the damp/wet areas. A lot of people say the old 2-prong outlets can stay, and the code doesn't require them to be upgraded, but there are some issues.
The older style outlets are not polarized ... IMHO not that big a deal though. But, you just know "harry homeowner" is gonna come along with a 3-prong cheater plug. So if the box doesn't have a "good" ground ... ZAP. But if the box has a decent ground, I would say just make a note of the older 2-prong outlet.
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: lwilliams This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
As a typical home inspector, unless you are an expert in the field of electricity, you should not be offering any fixes or solutions to 2-prong outlets. Simply stating in your report " the current electrical system appears to be adequate but outdated by today’s standards. Further evaluation by a licensed electrician is recommended before any changes or updates to the system" should be as far as you go as an inspector (unless you are an expert in the field…).
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
lwilliams wrote:
... unless you are an expert in the field of electricity, you should not be offering any fixes or solutions to 2-prong outlets.
I agree ... be careful what you report Dave.
It is very simple to check out older 2-prong outlets with a 3-prong cheater plug and one of the better plug-in outlet testers (e.g. GB SureWire or Ideal SureTest ... but IMHO the later is a little much for an HI). How else would you know if even the 3-prong outlets you see have a decent ground?
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I looked through that thread and am not sure that I agree the old BX was ever listed for grounding use.
Can you give me any info that would lead me to believe at one time it was suitable for grounding. 
We had NM cable out after this BX that did not have grounding conductors.
Even if you can show me it was at one time listed for grounding it is not now.
If you do not change things it can stay, if you do add a 3 wire outlet to this non grounding listed cable you run into 80.9(B).
As a side note to all of this, lets say you do change the outlet to a grounding type outlet with GFCI protection but no grounding conductor the NEC does not permit the following equipment to be plugged into the outlet(s)
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
“What does everyone think about old 2-prong outlets, and what do you recommend in your reports?”
OK Rob here I go.
Erol,
"Not grounded. Needs to be updated for sure"
They are grounded. And do not require updating.
Erol
"I don't think calling for a sparky here would be out of line"
Yes it would.
Rob
"The older style outlets are not polarized"
Although they may exist I have never seen a non-polarized outlet.
Lisa
"As a typical home inspector, unless you are an expert in the field of electricity, you should not be offering any fixes or solutions to 2-prong outlets"
Lisa hits the nail on the head.
Rob
"It is very simple to check out older 2-prong outlets with a 3-prong cheater plug"
It do not want to defend myself in court using a non listed testing device. IE "cheater plug"
Your report should state that the older 2 prong oulets are installed in this home. Period.
Saying that they should be changed to GFCI's or anything else is out of your field of expertise.
Bob (iwire) might be able to tell how Bennie and I feel about this. It is not me you need to worry about. It is someone like "Bennie" coming in and saying that you are full of ****.
Bottom line is: 2 prong outlets ARE safe when properly installed and properly used.
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bob,
We've beat the BX grounging thing to death. In short, in many jurisdictions it is acceptable, including NYC. THis methodology is also accepted in the areas where I currently inspect. Again, we beat this one to death...
As to the 2-prong issue... If there are 2-prong outlets present, and the electrical system is otherwise okay, there is no defect. I do not automatically recommend upgrade to grounded outlets, because the truth is, that many homeowners (buyers) will try this themselves and can make the situation bad, by not understanding grounding principals. Where things were, at one time, fine on a home which had been equipped with w-prong receptacles, I've seen upgrades performed by the seller, only to create a defect by not having a proper ground.
An acceptable grounding methodology is also via the mounting screws, which mechanically bond the receptacle to the grounded box; providing, however, that the box is grounded.
I explain in the report that modern wiring techniques employ 3-prong, polarized, and grounded receptacles. I also explain the benefits of installing GFIs in exterior, bathroom, kitchen counter, garage, basement, and other damp locations. I go on to recommemd that before they considering upgrading any receptacle, they have the current system exaluated by a licensed electrical contractor.
-- Joe Farsetta
Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."
Originally Posted By: ekartal This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Erol,
"Not grounded. Needs to be updated for sure"
They are grounded. And do not require updating.
Erol
"I don't think calling for a sparky here would be out of line"
Yes it would.
I still don't get it. I thought two prong outlets were not grounded. and recommending a sparky would be proper advice.      
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Mike Parks wrote:
It do not want to defend myself in court using a non listed testing device. IE "cheater plug"
Bottom line is: 2 prong outlets ARE safe when properly installed and properly used.
2 to 3 prong adapters should be outlawed IMHO.
Unfortunately, the 3-prong cheater plugs are legal and UL listed, so people will use them. I recently bought another one to see what warnings came with it ... nothing, except a small note on the adapter to "Connect Tab to Grounded Screw" ...  ... (but they did outlaw the 3-prong cheater plugs with the wire ... they all have the metal grounding tab now.)
The cheater plug I have is UL listed, and all you are doing is replicating what a homeowner would do to plug in your tester (don't even have to remove a screw). I think it would be a disservice to your client if you didn't either check out some of the old 2-prong outlets with a tester, or recommend a sparky check it out if you don't have the knowledge or equipment to do it. You can recommend not using a cheater plug, but they aren't going to remember that a year later.
I have read some of Bennie's MH posts on grounding ... very "shocking" but he make a lot of sense. I think he would make Blaine's hair hurt if he jumped in on this one ...
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
roconnor wrote:
I have read some of Bennie's MH posts on grounding ... very "shocking" but he make a lot of sense. I think he would make Blaine's hair hurt if he jumped in on this one ... 
Shoot he can make my head spin around and I think I have a grip on most of the NECs first 3 sections. 
Remembering that "information technology equipment" includes home PCs, do you really think a modern home is best served by 2 wire outlets?
While I agree the two wire outlets themselves are not a hazard if I was an HI I would say something like this.
This house has 2 wire non-grounding type outlets, while not a safety problem in themselves, they severely limit the types of equipment that are allowed to be supplied from the existing wall outlets.
Use of grounding adapters may result in a serious safety issue
You may want to consult an electrician for your options in upgrading these existing outlets
