Does anyone have any data or opinions on what the maximum deviation from level should be on a new interior house slab if you used tools that could measure, say, in the tenths of an inch per ten foot distance?
The question is purely directed towards new slab construction evaluation, not failure, sinking issues or crack sizes.
I purchased this yesterday. This lists some acceptable tolerances. I have an inspection tomorrow where the home was inspected by a relocation inspection company and my client says his floor feels like he’s walking into a bowl. He has vacuumed sawdust from the carpeting and want’s to know if the previous inspector missed something. I bought that level to get some precise measurements. He might have some structural issues and I will have to look a little deeper than the previous inspector.
A slab on ground ahould never have a deviation of anything like one inch in 10 feet. So much depends on the subsoil and preparation of the subgrade, but the slab should be very much near level. I wouldn’t expect much more variation than 1/4-inch in 10 feet.
If a person feels like he’s walking into a bowl, perhaps the builders made the mistake of resting the slab edge on the foundation, and normal minuscule settlement will produce such an illusion, because the center of the slab settles, while the edge does not. If a slab is kept free of the foundation, settlement will be unifrom and not noticeable, if any occurs at all.
Post-tensioned slabs are another issue. Such slabs can experience tension creep when the anticipated loads, such as from expansive subsoils, do not occur, and greater variations are possible.
Richard, 1/4" in 10’ is also the normal around here for new slab on grade.
Now whether or not the slab on grade is resting partly on a foundation or not, should not indicate a settling differential.
If there is a foundation around the perimeter, first of all the top of the foundation should have a brick shelf bond-out on the interior to make sure the slab joint to wall is under the baseboard interior finish later.
The compaction of a 95% density throughout the entire area of the slab on grade should assure that no settlement will occurr.
With proper compaction, it would not make much difference whether the slab is on the foundation or not.
If compaction is pour, you are better off to have your slab on a brick shelf of the foundation, cause in one years time, you can take your hammer and tap the slab and you will hear the void sound.
The conctrete slab with W1.29 wire should span the void, and if not, you got bigger problems.
JMO
Marcel :)
No concrete slab is going to span a 40-foot house…and if it settles, it will be like a spoon if it rests on the foundation. There will be a crack 3 or 4 feet out, with a sharp slope down to the center. Sure, if there is proper compaction, settlement would be minimized, but you don’t know Poconos construction. Compaction means smacking it with a spade once or twice.
Well, then, I guess we are talking apples and oranges.
Are we designing for the inferiorities of the Building Contractors or are we designing and inspecting as things should be done as specified per Architectural Standards and Common Construction Practices.
I do the latter as far as Building and slabs can be supported by foundations which is the best scenario.
And If a slab on grade looks like a spoon, I will spend an extra hour on the report explaining why it happened to educate the client.
This would be part of it.
Excavations beneath the slab that are not to be filled with concrete (usually plumbing or other mechanical trenches) should be brought back to grade in compacted lifts.
This means a 24" trench would be backfilled 6" at a time, each “lift” being mechanically vibrated so it is left compact.
If these excavations are not compacted when backfilled, this loose soil will settle over time leaving the concrete over that area with no earth under it.
This becomes a prime place for concrete to settle.
Since the soil next to these excavations is native soil, the uncompacted trench can literally become a thoroughfare for water.
If I find the picture details, I will post here.
Marcel :)
Residential Construction Performance Guidelines
Third Edition
National Association of Home Builders
They say they use the book as minimum performance criteria but 3/8" deviation in 32"?..
Hi. Linas, hope you are doing well and family healthy.
I hope that book helped you out, but is kind of technical and this below might help some get a better understanding of Floor Levelness and Floor Flatness.
I will be the first to admit, that this system has always been confuseing to me also.
I still like to use the 1/4" in ten feet method, but that is only good in residential and light Commercial Jobs, where flatness is not critical.
I am starting to see more Specifications on Commercial Projects that specify the F-# system now, and has confused me too.
Here is something I found that helps me out as well as possibly helping a few members that are interested enough to read and comphrehend the contents.
Hope it helps a little.
The 40 Most Asked Questions about F-Numbers
**1. What are F-Numbers? **
The F-Number System is the American Concrete Institute (ACI 117) and Canadian Standards Association (CSA A23.1) standard for the specification and measurement of concrete floor flatness and levelness. F-Numbers replace the familiar “1/8th inch in ten feet” type specs that had proven unreliable, unmeasureable and unrealistic.
The new standards include **two F-Number**s:
FF for** flatness** and FL for** levelness **
Flatness relates to the bumpiness of the floor, while levelness describes the local tilt or pitch of the slab. The higher the F-Number, the better that characteristic of the floor. F-Numbers are linear, so an FF 20 is twice as flat as an FF 10, but only half as flat as an FF 40.
Slabs-on-grade are usually specified with an FF number and an FL number (the FF is always listed first), such as :
FF 25 / FL20
Because of deflection, elevated slabs are usually specified using only FF.
When a floor is described as an “F 25”, it usually means “FF 25”.
The ACI/CSA F-Number System applies to 99% of all floor slabs - all floors that support random traffic, be it vehicular or pedestrian traffic.
In the tiny percentage of floors that have defined traffic, where vehicles are restricted in their movement by wire or rail guidance, a different F-Number - Fmin - is used. This System is used in conjunction with consultation services provided by The Face Companies.
Most Superflat floors should use the Fmin System, since most of these slabs support defined traffic.
**2. What was wrong with the old “straightedge” specs?
**
**There was disagreement as to what they meant. **
Did “1/8th inch in ten feet” mean ± 1/8" in 10’ (a horizontal 1/4" envelope which is 10’ long) - or - did it mean ± 1/16" in 10’ (a horizontal 1/8th inch envelope which is ten feet long)?
**Straightedge measurements were unscientific and non-repeatable. **
Before F-Numbers, floors were only “measured” long after the fact, when someone didn’t like the floors’ general appearance. That’s when the straightedge was finally hauled out by the aggrieved party in an effort to prove his case. Of course, no two people got the same results, since there was no standard for either the test method or for interpreting the results.
They were unrealistic.
Although “1/8th inch in ten feet” has been used to specify billions of square feet of concrete, it was seldom, if ever, achieved. The typical industrial floor, for example, is closer to a horizontal 5/8th inch by ten foot envelope.
**3. If floor measurements are so inaccurate, how can you determine floor flatness at all?
**
During the last 25 years, extremely accurate floor measuring instruments have been developed.
One, the Profileograph, produces continuous measurements of wheeltrack areas along designated vehicular travel paths. The Profileograph is used only on Defined Traffic Floors.
Another instrument, the Dipstick Floor Profiler, produces a point-to-point graph of the surface measured, as well as the data required to compute ACI/CSA F-Numbers for Random Traffic Floors.
**4. Now that you can make accurate measurements, why can’t we keep using the straightedge specs?
**
**Straightedge specifications didn’t control the characteristics of the floor that relate to its usefulness. **
[LIST]For instance, all of these floor profiles would satisfy the “1/8th inch in ten feet spec”:
http://faceco.com/40quesgraph.gif
Since all these floor profiles would meet the 1/8th" spec, the straightedge specs themselves simply were not capable of controlling the floor profile.
**5. How are F-Numbers better?
**
F-Numbers control both the floor’s “envelope” and its bumpiness.
Or, if you think of the floor profile as a wave, F-Numbers control both the wave’s amplitude and its frequency.
F-Numbers have shown the ability to identify and to control floor characteristics which are critical to the floor’s usefulness.
**6. What F-Number equals 1/8th" in 10’?
**
For all of the reasons outlined already, there is no F-Number equivalent to any straightedge spec. But, rough equivalents, in terms of horizontal envelopes, can be given:
An FF 25 is roughly equivalent to a single ± 1/4" defect in 10’
An FF 50 is roughly equivalent to a single ± 1/8" defect in 10’
An FF 100 is roughly equivalent to a single ± 1/16" defect in 10’
**7. Since I’ve been meeting 1/8th" in 10 ’ for years, why should I have any problem meeting an FF 50 ?
**
Because you weren’t meeting 1/8th inch in 10 feet! Just because the floor was accepted and paid for doesn’t mean it was actually that flat. *The only time you can be sure you actually built a floor to a specific tolerance is if the floor was measured. *
In all probability, most of the concrete floors placed in the last 50 years would measure somewhere between FF 15 and FF 35; that’s something like horizontal envelopes measuring 1 inch by 10 feet - to 3/8ths inch by 10 feet.
**8. How can I find out what F-Numbers I have been producing ?
**
Just hire a testing lab to measure some of your old jobs. If your local test lab doesn’t have a Dipstick, you can rent or purchase one and measure the floors yourself. Then, you will know exactly what F-Numbers you have been able to produce under the particular circumstances of each project you measured.
**9. I don’t need floors that are very flat, so why should I worry about F-Numbers?
**
Using F-Numbers doesn’t mean that floors have to be specified flatter than is needed. But, without F-Numbers, there is no way to measure reliably what floor flatness/levelness was actually produced.
The average industrial floor is about an FF 20-25 / FL 15-20. Many building owners are satisfied with this result, but some would find areas of the floor that they would want “fixed”.
What happens if the floor profile is not specified at all, and an FF 12 / FL 8 is produced? Most owners are not going to be happy with this result.
But without clearly defining what is and is not satisfactory in the floor specification, the developer of the building has no control whatsoever over what he is buying.
**10. What good does it do to measure a floor after it’s already in place … isn’t it already too late?
**
**F-Numbers were not invented as a way to find somebody to blame. Properly used, F-Numbers identify problems and help prevent their recurrence. **
After gaining experience with F-Numbers, a contractor can select placement and finishing procedures which will make a failure very unlikely.
F-Number measurements should be taken as soon as each day’s placement will bear foot traffic. In most cases, the F-Numbers for that slab can be determined within an hour or two and a report generated before the next slab is placed.
With daily measurement, a construction problem can be identified and corrected before it’s repeated.
**11. That’s great for the second placement, but what do you do to make sure the first pour is okay?
**
Placing floors to achieve certain F-Numbers is not guesswork.
Millions and millions of square feet of concrete have been placed using the F- Number System. Concrete contractors have learned that, by using certain placement and finishing techniques, they can routinely achieve different F-Numbers (see Measuring the Quality of Floor Finishes).
Therefore, if a job is specified FF 25 / FL20, a contractor should use procedures which typically produce those F- Numbers or, to play it safe, methods which produce marginally higher F-Numbers.
So, the keys to meeting F-Numbers specs are:
** 1. Choose the correct placement and finishing procedures to meet the specified F- Numbers.**
** 2. Measure each day’s work as soon as possible so, if there’s a problem, it will be identified before it’s repeated.**
**12. How does a novice know what F-Numbers to specify?
**
There are two ways to select the proper F-Numbers for a given floor usage.
** The first and the best way is to identify a floor in a building that the user is already happy with. The F-Numbers for this floor can then be measured and used to develop a new floor specification.
If that’s not practical, you can use F-Numbers suggested by the American Concrete Institute and others, which are based on hundreds of projects around the country.
**13. How are F-Numbers measured?
**
F-Numbers are derived from a statistical analysis of the floor’s elevation measured at one-foot intervals. The elevation differences over two feet are used to determine FF , while the differences over ten feet are used to determine FL.
Basically, measurement lines are laid out on the floor, and elevation measurements are taken every one foot down the line. Each measurement line should be at least 11 feet long, and at least 34 individual elevation measurements should be taken for each 1,000 square feet of floor area. Detailed rules for performing F-Number tests are set forth in ASTM E-1155.
After collection, the elevation readings are put into standard mathematical formulae to calculate the floor’s F-Numbers. Several devices are approved by ASTM for F-Number measurement, including the Dipstick Floor Profiler.
**14. How long does it take to measure a floor?
**
A single operator with a Dipstick can collect enough readings in 60 to 90 minutes to measure the typical day’s slab-on-grade placement. With the Dipstick® 2000, 2200, or 2272, the data can then be analyzed right on the Dipstick®. Alternatively, the data may be downloaded to a PC at your office for analysis later.
15. What if the floor doesn’t meet the specified F-Numbers?
**
This is a question that must be answered before the construction of the floor begins. The “what-if’s” should always be addressed in the floor specification. Each floor should be specified using two pairs of F-Numbers called:
Specified Overall F-Numbers and
** Minimum Local F-Numbers.
The Specified Overall F-Numbers represent the minimum values allowed for the entire floor, looked at as a whole.
The Minimum Local F-Numbers define the minimum quality acceptable to the Owner - the lowest results allowed in any one floor section. These numbers are generally set at about 2/3 of the Specified Overall Numbers. This allows contractors sufficient margin for the normal variations that occur with a given construction method. * However, no floor should be spec’ed with Minimum Local values lower than FF 13 / FL 10; this is the worst result to be tolerated from any construction technique.*
The idea is that if the Contractor aims above the Overall F-Numbers, he will, at least, average those Overall values - and it is very unlikely that he will fail to achieve the Minimum Local F-Numbers.
16. That makes the odds better, but say the Contractor does miss the Minimum Local F-Numbers?
**
As we’ve pointed out, the Minimum Local F-Numbers give the Contractor very considerable room for error, but if he does miss even these lower numbers, he has only two choices:
1) Repair (this almost always means re-topping) all defective sections.
2) Remove and replace all defective sections.
But don’t worry too much about ripping out slabs right and left. If the proper procedures are used, the chances of failing to meet Minimum Local F- Numbers on a project are almost zero.**
**17. What about localized grinding as a repair?
**
Because F-Numbers are a statistical measurement, localized grinding usually doesn’t work on Random Traffic Floors. If the grinding removes what looks like a “bump” in one direction, the grinding might be creating a “dip” when the floor is measured in another direction.
Unless there is a very obvious local defect, grinding is not a solution.
**18. What happens if the Specified Overall F-Numbers are missed?
**
Because the specification has already defined the Minimum Local F-Numbers as “acceptable”, no corrections are mandated by failing to satisfy the Specified Overall F-Numbers. But clearly, the floor produced was not the floor specified. The Face Companies’ recommended solution is a rebate formula. The floor specification should include a per-square-foot figure for the number of square feet that does not meet the Specified Overall F-Numbers.
**19. How can you figure out how much of the floor fails to meet the Specified Overall F-Numbers?
**
The software which comes with every model of the Dipstick automatically calculates the floor area equal to spec, the floor area better than spec, and the floor area worse than the spec.
**20. Does this mean I have to buy a Dipstick to put in a floor specified with F-Numbers?
**
The Dipstick offers the fastest, easiest and most economical way to monitor F-Number projects, but, in most cases, purchase of a Dipstick in order to measure a single project is neither necessary nor advisable.
Many testing labs already have Dipsticks and offer F-Number measurement as part of their overall quality control services.
Dipsticks are also available for rent - by the week or the month.
**21. Can anyone operate a Dipstick?
**
People who have never run a Dipstick should receive one or two days of training in the operation of the instrument and in F-Number measurement procedures.
This training and Dipstick certification are offered by The Face Companies.
Official ACI, CSA and ASTM documents should always be kept available for quick reference on jobsite.
**22. Is it okay if F-Number measurements are taken less frequently - maybe even just at the end of the job?
**
The ACI mandates F-Number measurement within 72 hours of slab installation (this would allow a Friday pour to be measured on Monday). On most projects, daily testing is best.
A significant delay between placement and measurement can allow shrinkage or deflection phenomena (such as curling) to affect the results. One of the objectives of timely measurement is to establish clearly whether the Contractor did or did not do his job, so that the cause and remedy of any problems found can be easily determined.
**23. How can I improve the F-Numbers I get?
**
There are many factors which influence F-Number results, but there is a simple way to look at it:
FF = finishing FL = forming & strike-off
The quickest, easiest and least expensive way to improve flatness (FF) is to replace the bullfloat with a highway straightedge. At no extra cost, this simple equipment substitution alone can result in an increase of 25% to 50% in the resulting FF numbers.
By increasing the number of highway straightedging operations during the finishing process (after floating, refloating, etc.), higher and higher FF numbers can be achieved. The distance between edge forms may have to be reduced below 25 feet to achieve FF numbers above 40.
**The accuracy in setting forms and the accuracy of the strike-off operation have the greatest impact on levelness (FL). **
Because of the increased number and intensity of operations, more labor is generally required to achieve higher and higher F-Numbers.
**24. Why is flatness important on elevated slabs?
**
While its cosmetic importance is obvious, slab flatness/levelness also has a major impact on the ease, efficiency and cost of finishing out tenant spaces. The construction and installation of door frames, movable partitions, pre-fabricated cabinetry and elevator landings are impacted by the flatness and levelness of the floor slabs.
25. How do F-Numbers work on elevated slabs?
**
In most cases, only the FF number is specified on elevated slabs**. That’s because elevated slabs deflect - and the contractor can’t totally control how much deflection occurs. The use of FL on elevated slabs is limited to specific situations where the floor profile is analyzed when :
a) the slab is still supported in its original as-cast position; and
b) the slab has no camber.
**26. What FF Numbers should be specified for elevated slabs?
**
An Overall FF 25 is well received by most Owners and can be achieved without significant cost burden. The Face Companies recommend that no elevated slab should be specified lower than Overall FF 20. The right FF for each job will depend on the use of the floor. For instance, a floor that will be tiled should be flatter than a floor that will be carpeted.
**27. Even though FL shouldn’t be used on most elevated slabs because of deflection, isn’t controlling deflection still important?
**
Yes. Although F-Numbers aren’t the answer for controlling deflection, the Dipstick can be used to produce floor profiles before and after shore removal. By studying the amount of deflection which occurs, design and construction procedures can be modified until optimum results are achieved.
**28. Without an F-Number for deflection, how is it specified and controlled?
**
The Face Companies recommend that the elevated slab **specification require that a certain percentage of the elevation points **measured using ASTM procedures after deflection has occurred fall within a defined envelope.
Based on Face Companies research, most Owners are happy with the result if 80% of the sample falls within a 3/4 inch envelope.
During measurement and data analysis, each measurement line is tied to a design elevation to make this analysis possible.
**29. How long does it take to measure an elevated slab?
**
In order to perform the deflection analysis unique to elevated slabs, extra care is taken to identify each measurement line before readings are taken.
This means that elevated slabs take a little more time to measure.
Generally, 20,000 to 25,000 sq. ft. of elevated slabs can be measured in two to two and a half hours.
**30. How are defects in elevated slabs repaired?
**
The most common repair method is patching (or “skim-coating”). Floor locations identified by Dipstick survey as needing repair may be as small as an area bounded by column lines and half-column lines.
Suspect areas identified by the initial ASTM E 1155 measurement are usually re-measured in more detail to establish the boundaries of the repair.
**31. What is a Superflat Floor?
**
By definition, Superflat = Fmin 100
The word Superflat was first used by The Face Companies in the 1970’s to describe the flatness/levelness required to support full-speed, trouble-free operation of Very Narrow Aisle (VNA) lift trucks.
Since Fmin is the Defined Traffic F-Number, it cannot be measured using the ACI/CSA/ASTM F-Number System.
In order to achieve this high degree of flatness/levelness, Superflat floors must be placed in long, narrow strips. The forms for Superflat placements must be set with great precision. Specialized finishing techniques and continuous quality control measurement are also required. The services of a floor design/construction consultant are usually advisable.
For Random Traffic Floors, Superflat is often defined as** FF 100/FL 50**; but Superflat tolerances are rarely required on Random Traffic Floors and should be specified only in extraordinary circumstances.
**32. How is a Defined Traffic Superflat Floor measured?
**
Floor consultants from The Face Companies measure Fmin using the Profileograph, in conjunction with their overall design, construction and certification services.
For Random Traffic Floors, F-Numbers can be measured using the Dipstick Floor Profiler - but, again, the Dipstick should never be used to measure narrow aisle warehouse floors or any Defined Traffic Floor.
33. Isn’t a Random Traffic Superflat Floor the same thing as a Defined Traffic Superflat Floor?
**
No. A Defined Traffic Floor (such as a narrow aisle warehouse) supports traffic which moves along the exact same tracks all the time.
This means that the travel paths can be measured using an instrument that precisely simulates the behavior of the vehicles which will be used on the floor. This kind of vehicle simulator (such as the Face Floor Profileograph) is configured to mimic the wheel pattern of the actual lift truck to be used. The instrument rolls down the vehicle travel paths and records the relative motion of its wheels, side to side and front to front.
With this kind of continuous simulation measurement, local defects (bumps or dips) in the tracks can be identified and corrected by localized grinding.
In contrast, ACI/CSA/ASTM F-Numbers (Random Traffic F-Numbers) are not measured from a continuous profile. The one-foot measurements do not simulate what the lift truck “sees” and cannot, therefore, be used to identify and repair specific wheel track defects.
**34. How much does a Superflat floor cost?
**
The cost of making a floor Superflat varies significantly from one region of the country to another. The premium on smaller projects (25,000 sq. ft. and under) is especially difficult to generalize.
But on average, turning a conventional floor into a Superflat floor (all other things being equal ) will likely increase the floor’s cost between $ 0.90 and $ 1.50 per square foot.
Most of the extra costs are related to the additional labor required for special forming and finishing procedures, and the reduced production rates achieved (4,000 to 6,000 sq.ft./day per crew on the average).
**35. I can understand how grinding can be used to correct high spots on Superflat floors, but how can grinding fix low spots?
**
If there is a spot that is too low in a Superflat Defined Traffic wheelpath, grinding can be used to smooth out the dip lengthwise down the track - and to lower the elevation of the opposite wheeltrack to level the location.
**36. Can a floor be Superflat even if it is designed to slope?
**
Yes. Design slope can be compensated for in Superflat measurements.
It’s important to remember that the floor profile characteristics that are critical to efficient, full-speed vehicle operation are the flatness/levelness characteristics under the wheels of the vehicle.
In most cases, the truck really doesn’t care if one end of the aisle is higher or lower than the other. It only cares how many bumps and dips it encounters in getting from one end to the other.
**37. Can’t I save money by making my floor Superflat only in the travel paths and not under the racks?
**
This is not a good idea in most cases.
Remember, Superflat floors are placed in long, narrow strips. The strips are arranged to conform to the racking layout for the warehouse. The long edges of each strip are positioned so they will end up in the middle of adjacent racking sections. The aisleway and the travel path are located down the middle of each strip.
Since forming the aisleway separately would require twice as much forming and twice as many slab placements, this approach is usually not practical - nor does it produce significantly better F-Numbers.
The floor specification should include a per-square-foot figure for the portion of the floor that does not meet the Overall F-Numbers.
**38. Can a floor be built so it’s Superflat in all directions Ñ so I could move my racks in the future without worrying about floor flatness?
**
No one has figured out a way to build a Superflat joint, so building a floor that’s Superflat in all directions is not yet possible.
Using the best installation technologies available, the practical limit in as-built omni-directional flatness/levelness is about FF 50 / FL35.
**39. How can I make an existing conventional floor Superflat?
**
There are two alternatives:
1) a Superflat topping; or
2) Superflat grinding.
Both options require specialized knowledge, both in planning and executing the repair.
The services of an floor consultant experienced in topping and grinding repairs should be retained early in the decision-making process.
**40. How do I get more information on F-Numbers and floor flatness/levelness?
**
You can click the links below for information, or call the Face Companies at (757) 624-2121,
or E-Mail us with your questions at dipstick@faceco.com
Gap Under Straightedge Minimum Local F-Numbers FF & FL ASTM E-1155
216 KBytes 21 KBytes 73 KBytes 67 KBytes
How to measure ASTM E-1155 Dipstick Capabilities Dipstick Hints & Layout
762 KBytes 14 KBytes 43 KBytes
Elevation Studies Sample Specs Setting up a Test Track
46 KBytes 102 KBytes 59 KBytes
Changes made to ASTM E-1155 in 1996](http://faceco.com/1155ch.html) 6 KBytes
Marcel :)
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