Splicing hip rafters

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#1

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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Anyone have any comments off the top of their head regarding spicing of hip rafters?


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Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

#2

Originally Posted By: ismetaniuk
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This membership was a big waste of my time!

–
Igor


Top To Bottom Inspections


Glen Spey, NY

#3

Originally Posted By: jremas
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Igor, maybe it was the sage or paprika that you missed. Other than that I would just say that the SPLICING of hiprafters is an unconventional method, amateur like construction. Rafters are not sized based on splices, just continuous lumber. I would just flag it and say that it is a concern and refer them to a contractor of that specialty for further review. However inside of my own head I would want to say that whoever did that work is an idiot, made it harder on themselves and now the homeowner is paying the price. JMHO

–



Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598
#4

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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Hey Igor,


At least I spelled it right once ![icon_razz.gif](upload://rytL63tLPMQHkufGmMVcuHnsuWJ.gif)

Jeff,

Thanks for the input Devil Dog. I appreciate it.

--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

#5

Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
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Properly sized, and supported at the splice joint to carry the load to the foundation, it shouldn’t be a problem.


Maybe kinda silly to splice such a short one though. Surely there was somewhere else that didn't carry a load to place a spliced board, so they could use a single piece hip rafter.

--
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, Kentucky
www.b4uclose.com

#6

Originally Posted By: jremas
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In atcuality, properly sized and supported it is not a problem… HOWEVER, how do we know it is properly sized and supported? What chart or reference material do we use? I just note it and send them to a contractor who can make that call or assume the liability for a repair.

–



Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598
#7

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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The client should be referred to an engineer to evaluate potential framing problems like that.


Splices of hip rafters is usually not a good idea ... heavily loaded members. It's hard to tell from those pics, but it looks like the splice was just some thin plywood nailed on to the sides ... not a good idea.

Looks like that didnt work to well either because it also looks like the hip rafters have been posted. Looks like a lot of things have been posted, and it seems to be a hack job. There are usually no bearing walls near the corner of a house, so posted to where is the real question ... ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

#8

Originally Posted By: jremas
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Sorry Robby O, can’t agree with you here. If it is an engineered piece of lumber or truss then I will call out for an engineer. Not for conventional existing framing with no other signs of movement or problems. If I referred every broken rafter and splice to an engineer I would be out of business because my agent referrals would drop like a rock. It is much less expensive to get a qualified framing contractor to evaluate it or have he/she call for an engineer if they feel it is necessary. Much too high an expense and waste of a resource. There are structural framing tables available to let framers know what size a piece of lumber needs to be. No offense to any engineers, we all have our place in society and I have plenty respect for the engineering profession. This would be similar to calling a doctor to come look at your toe that you just stubbed.


I recently took out a building permit for my own home so I can open up some bearing walls and support them with engineered laminate beams. The company that makes the beams was able to provide me with the calculations that I needed to determine what size beams I needed and the IRC 2003 enabled me to determine what additional supports I may need in the basement. I don't think that I need to hire an engineer to review my plans (although one is anyway from the municipality). The information i needed was free and available to me or any contractor who would have been performing the job. The engineering came in at the company who manufactured the beams, they determined what spans the beams could make and provided charts for us to use.

I guess what I am getting at is we all have our place in society and sometimes calling for an engineer would be overkill in my opinion. I don't remember an engineer showing my dad and myself what size lumber we needed to frame a hip roof,...that info was in the books,.. books written and charted by engineers.

OK, I'm done

--


Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598

#9

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Jeff R.


You have been rambling quite a bit lately! Are you OK?

Joe Myers

#10

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Jeff … you are correct to a point, and an engineer does not need to be called in for simple framing problems or deterioration. But roof framing systems are a lot more complicated than people think. Believe it or not, they typically act as large truss systems and also provide lateral load resistance. That?s why cathedral ceilings cause so many problems.


If that was a few spliced rafters no big deal. But hip rafters are heavily loaded members and there aren?t any simple tables of hip rafter splices. Plus, it looks like there may be other problems there ? notice the other members that are braced and hack posted. In this case it looks like it would be better to have an engineer take a quick look and sketch up a correct fix for a contractor to just come in and bang out. Just my 2-cents since I am an engineer also.

P.S. Hope you were careful with selecting and detailing those laminated beams. In a fire they spark up like matchlight charcoal and are like a wet noodle faster than you can whistle dixie ? ask a fireman. Plus some fall apart like a cheap suit when they get wet ... not a good thing for roof framing that can get wet. Don?t even get me started on the I-joists. Manufacturers dont seem to point those things out ? go figure ? ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

#11

Originally Posted By: jremas
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Bob O, thank you for your insight, very informative and appreciated.


Hey Joe, I was rambling on Saturday because I was in one of those moods and have not posted in awhile.

thanks

--


Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598

#12

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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Robert and all,


Thanks for your help. The project manager for the builder called me about these splices today in reference to my report and told me they were standard construction, referred to alligator splices.

I told him that I thought that these splices may be commonly discovered but should not be confused with standard construction practices. I asked him to fax me the reference. The fax hasn't come yet.

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Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

#13

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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John … I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for the fax … icon_lol.gif


Also, what is up with the apparent "supplementary" bracing and hack posts of the rafters that frame into this hip rafter with a "standard" splice? Hard to tell from the small pics.

And where are these things being posted down to?

Looks like they realized they had a problem and tried to "fix" it ... ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

PS. Seems like you do a lot of buyer inspections during construction ... I feel your pain as an HI and p/t AHJ.

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

#14

Originally Posted By: jremas
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John & Bob,


I agree not to hold your breath waiting for the fax on this one. Unfortunately there is a problem through the entire country with lack of proper training for construction. Many have learned by watching someone who did not know what they are doing. The home inspection industry in many states is more highly regulated than the construction industry and hence the problem. What may be "standard practice" to one person may just be an accident waiting to happen for another.

--


Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598

#15

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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Robert,


The veritical braces for the splice do go down to an inside wall which seems to be reinforced with extra studs. If I had to guess, the splice has more potential to shift laterally (as you suggested earlier) than sag downward . One of the "splices" was actually a repair to a split defect in the wood. The other was a splice of two different pieces of lumber.

You are right again. They definitely knew they had a problem and tried to fix it. Because of everyones input I basically informed the client that these are splices, they do not appear to be of standard construction, they may hold but they also may not. Referred to qualified contractor to determine. I used a little more refinement in my report verbiage but you get the idea.

Jeff mentioned in another thread that you want to inform the client not scare them. I couldn't agree more and try to keep that in mind during new build inspections. These people are usually already scared by the time they hire us.

I have to admit though, having a good discovery on a new build helps to make it easier for the client to feel that their inspection money was well spent.

--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

#16

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Yes, Jeff is right that you want to inform your client and not scare them.


Might be better to let the AHJ run with the ball now that you have done your job to observe and report (but keep in mind that building inspectors are sometimes very busy and they do miss things ... as you probably know) ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

#17

Originally Posted By: rking
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Hello All,


That is a very standard practice in Subdivision framing. It is accepted by all of the building officials that I have dealt with in my career.
The plywood gussetts shown should be 5/8" or 3/4" and at least 12" long and nailed like he*@.
Putting intermediary supports underneath at a 45 degree angle supported right down to the basement is also required for these splices.

Note here though, although I do not agree with this, most areas allow for solid blocking in the floor between joist to support such a load!
And having said all of that, those hip rafters do not look long enough to need to be cut and spliced, must have been a bad estimator.
And a rule of thumb, hip rafters need to be at least one size bigger than rafters and sometimes larger depending on heel cut, the angled cut has to be in full contact with the hip/ridge.

--
Muskoka Home Inspections
"Wisdom is the Anticipation of the Consequences"
Steering Committee Member At Large

#18

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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Robert,


That must be because you Canadians don't have enough lumber. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

#19

Originally Posted By: rking
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John,


You have a good point. Trouble is though we have lots and lots of it but we sell it to our wonderful friends south of us and then buy it back at twice the price ![icon_confused.gif](upload://qv5zppiN69qCk2Y6JzaFYhrff8S.gif)
Boy, if only our top guns would really pay attention .

I think it might have something do with our all empowering dollar too

--
Muskoka Home Inspections
"Wisdom is the Anticipation of the Consequences"
Steering Committee Member At Large

#20

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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The way the IRC works for new homes (assuming that was adopted by the AHJ) any splices like those would have to be either shown on the drawings or designed and submitted to the AHJ for approval. The AHJ may also accept posting to solid suports as an alternate. It’s not really “standard” even if it is common practice in certain areas, because there are no provisions for that in the code.


You also have to be really careful with the nailing because its really easy to split a member subject to bending stresses ... particularly if you nail the s**t out of it ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

From the amount of hack posts and braces it doesnt look like that splice worked to well either ...

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong