Originally Posted By: awalters
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How far away from the main panel does a sub panel have to be in order to be a true sub (floating neutrals)
How far away from the main panel does a sub panel have to be in order to be a true sub (floating neutrals)
Originally Posted By: dspencer
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A sub panel is always a sub panel if it’s not the main.
Originally Posted By: jpope
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Load side equipment or service equipment. It doesn’t matter how far apart they are.
–
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: jmyers
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What Jeff said…
Any panel on the load side of the service dis-connect. 
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Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz
Originally Posted By: dhartke
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I have a couple questions.
If next to the obvious SE panel there is a mounted panel that is fed from the SE through a conduit and there is NO breaker between the two, is the second panel actually also a SE (main panel)? Stated another way, must there be a breaker between a "main" and "sub" panel?
One must assume there are no double taps (only safe, legal terminations) and the service wire is rated for the additional panels. As long as everything is sized accordingly can one expand there SE in this manner? Box A + Box B + Box C, etc?
Originally Posted By: jpope
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is load side equipment. Even if the SE has only one breaker, the main disconnect, and then a second panel is right next to it with all of the circuit breakers. The panel with the circuit breakers is load side equipment (a sub panel) requiring isolated neutrals and bonded grounds.
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Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: dvalley
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| Quote: |
| must there be a breaker between a "main" and "sub" panel? |
Yes, the sub panel (load side equip) must be protected at the SE with an appropriately sized breaker.
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David Valley
MAB Member
Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."
Originally Posted By: Matthew Metzger
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Jeff,
The following pics and situation has been previously discussed here. I am now confused, in the pics below the main disconnect is in the alley after the meter. Upon entering the garage you find the "sub panel" or load side equipment right (since the main disconnect is futher upstream in another box)? If this panel is considered to be a sub panel, then isnt it wired incorrectly. You can see the grounded bar at the bottom which looks alright and so does the neutrals until you get to the top their is a bunch of ground wires bonded to the neutral....incorrect isnt it?
Thanks Matt
Originally Posted By: jpope
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Yes, you are correct. This panel is improperly wired.
The grounds must have their own bus bar (which I can see at the bottom of the panel). That bus bar must be bonded to the enclosure (panel box). The equipment ground from the four wire feed must be connected to or bonded to the grounding bus bar rather than the neutral bus bar.
The neutral bus bar must be isolated from the box and the equipment ground. (2002 NEC 408.20)
--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: Matthew Metzger
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Thanks for you help Jeff. We now this is load side equipment or a sub panel by the abscense or presence of the main disconnect is that right? If it contains
Thanks Matt
Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Matt,
While the Electician's there, he might as well separate the double lugged neutrals also.
--
David Valley
MAB Member
Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."
Originally Posted By: Matthew Metzger
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Good eyes Dave, yes they are double tapped. Since it is at my moms place I may be inclined to fix it for her. After cutting the power at the main disconnect, the double tapped neurtals are easy just designate 1 screw per neurtal wire. Now for the ground wires also on the neurtal bar…do they only need to be relocated to the grounded bus bar and thats it? The neurtal should be floating and the grounded bus bar should be bonded to the panel…is this correct? Her house was built in 1992, when did this become standard practice isolating the neutrals/grounds after the service equipment?
Thanks Matt
Originally Posted By: jpope
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| Matthew Metzger wrote: |
| We now this is load side equipment or a sub panel by the abscense or presence of the main disconnect is that right? If it contains |
Not necessarily. The service panel may not have a "main" disconnect. It may have six or less breakers. In older systems, there may be even more breakers although that is not allowed.
In residential applications, the first panel board after the meter (1 breaker or 100 breakers) is typically the service equipment.
Service comes from the street via lateral or drop and then to the meter. From the meter, it goes to a panel board. That is the service equipment.
--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: jpope
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| Matthew Metzger wrote: |
| Her house was built in 1992, when did this become standard practice isolating the neutrals/grounds after the service equipment? |
Long before 1992.
--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: tgardner
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In our area it is common to have 2 Main panels, each with it’s own disconnect breaker. In this case, they are fed from the meter base in parallel, each having a 200 amp disconnect panel. Each is wired as a main with the neutral bar bonded to the panel.
tg
Originally Posted By: jpope
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I have seen these as well. Typically they are bonded and feed different areas of the property.
–
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: Matthew Metzger
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Thanks guys! Am I right about the corrections, disconnect power and move the grounds to the grounded bar, fix the double tapped neurtrals and thats it? As long as the ground is bonded to the panel and the neutral is floating?
Originally Posted By: jpope
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- All work should be performed by a qualified, state-licensed electrical contractor.
Yes.
Cut the power.
Move the grounds and the EGC - be sure they're bonded to the box.
Separate the double lugged neutrals - make sure the bus is isolated (floating). There is usually a fiber plate to keep the ends of the neutrals from coming into contact with the box after they push through the bus bar.
--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Matt … do yourself and your mom a favor and get an electrician to do any repairs needed. Electrical work is one area that can be very hazardous to the person performing the work and the homeowner, and improper wiring causes a lot of house fires.
Andrew ... as an FYI, I never liked the term "main panel" because that can be confusing. Would it be a "Service Panel" (service equipment) which has the main disconnect and the neutral-ground bond, or is it a "Distribution Panel" with isolated neutrals that does not have the main disconnect. After that, everything is a "Sub Panel" to me.
http://www.nachi.org/tips/0534.gif
Note that the Tip above uses an older term of Combination Panel used a while back to describe combining the service disconnect box and the distribution panel, and is now just commonly called a "Service Panel" in the trade.
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Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong