The concept of Home Inspections and what they are about?

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Will you let me tag along during an inspection in the near future, so I can understand the concept of Home Inspections and what they are about?



Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant


www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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I can’t take you on a home inspection Joe, but you are welcome to goto the bar and swap sparky stories over a few cold ones icon_lol.gif



You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: gbell
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Hey Joe,


You are more than welcome to tag along with me when you are in Florida.



Greg Bell


Bell Inspection Service

Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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I was doing a final inspection one time on a new house (representing the city, not as the HI), and the HI was there with the homeowner.


He told me that he included in his report that there was not an access for the hydromassage tub motor, and asked me if I also wrote it up, since it is a code requirement. I said yes that I did. I then asked him if he wrote up a metal box in the basement with a receptacle in it that wasn't bonded. He said no, he is not a code inspector. I then asked him why he wrote up the access to the motor. He couldn't answer my question.

I guess what I am getting at, is that I am kind of like Joe T on this...I really don't understand completely where the HI and NEC relate to each other.


--
Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Ryan Jackson wrote:
He told me that he included in his report that there was not an access for the hydromassage tub motor, and asked me if I also wrote it up, since it is a code requirement. I said yes that I did. I then asked him if he wrote up a metal box in the basement with a receptacle in it that wasn't bonded. He said no, he is not a code inspector.


Ryan,

Do you find and write up EVERY electrical code item in the house? Or only the ones you see?

If you catch them all, you are a far better inspector than ANYONE else I've ever met (or not yet met).

If you don't, what is the difference between you NOT writing up ALL code items (that is your job) and the HI NOT writing up ALL code items (that is not his / her job)?


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Joe,


You are most certainly welcome to come with me on a home inspection, anytime you wish. I'd look forward to it. I cant teach you anything electrical, only what some of us do on a day-to-day basis, and how knowledge of things electrical help us in our inspection duties.'

I would genuinely like to see you to refine some of your advice and instructions to us. Less technicality of code rules, and more applicality and common sense based upon general knowledge, rather than absolute specific code references. That's the difference, IMO. Its the ability to translate code expertise and practical knowledge to the realities of home inspections.

Call me anytime...


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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“I guess what I am getting at, is that I am kind of like Joe T on this…I really don’t understand completely where the HI and NEC relate to each other.”


I agree. Electric is the one 'field' in which it is hard not to cross the 'line'.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: dbozek
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The NEC and the HI…hmmm I could write a book on that one icon_lol.gif


If the NEC does not relate to the HI, why are there so many HI's interested in it?

My belief is that everyone who intends on doing home inspections should have a general knowledge of the NEC as well as any codes for any area of a house. I am not saying they should quote from the NEC or that they should know such verbatim. All I am trying to say is that knowledge of such would and should aide a HI in properly identifying potential hazards in a house. After all, why are there home inspections? Think about it!


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Dennis,


Home inspections are intended to examine many systems in a home, not just electrical.

We are generalists. Although Mike Parks (as an example) states on another thread that two electrical drops to a residence is not allowed in the NEC, what are we to do when we see it in real life? If the AHJ okayed it, and the power company okayed it, we may be able to mention it, but so what. I'd be more effective in explaining to my client why he may want to change the configuration, as a matter of practicality, then in some technical mumbo jumbo. The NEC is confusing enough as it is!

If I tell the client that it's wrong because the NEC says it is, the likely response may be "then why does the utility and the town allow it? Good question. If I respond "I dont know why, but its wrong, I lose credibility. Sure, the battle is won (maybe), but the war is lost.

There is a clear line. I am not a code guru, but I do a good electrical inspection. I have general knowledge of codes, and a good knowledge of electricity. I am certainly not a code quoter. When I have a question, I call one of several master electricians I know. I always referr my clients to a qualified and licensed electrician for further evaluation when something is not right.

Let the electrical experts, used to the jurisdiction, deal with the problem.


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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jfarsetta wrote:
Joe,

You are most certainly welcome to come with me on a home inspection, anytime you wish. I'd look forward to it. I cant teach you anything electrical, only what some of us do on a day-to-day basis, and how knowledge of things electrical help us in our inspection duties.'

I would genuinely like to see you to refine some of your advice and instructions to us. Less technicality of code rules, and more applicability and common sense based upon general knowledge, rather than absolute specific code references. That's the difference, IMO. Its the ability to translate code expertise and practical knowledge to the realities of home inspections.

Call me anytime...


Thanks Joe:

Your invitation will be one that I will take when the opportunity arises, in the meantime the recent messages, and replies I posted here were without reference to a code section and or difficult explanation.

I see where there are others who are adding numbers of sections. I see nothing wrong with that because there are some here who want that information.

I have a suggestion. If you can send me a list of the most common say 25 defects and maybe a few electrical reports, or if anyone can, I will add my comments.

Joe, I have been inspecting new and existing structures for over 35 years and believe me I am fully aware of what takes place during an electrical inspection.

I found items that would curl your hair such as dummy outlets with short whips of cable just to satisfy the housing code and missing pieces in the middle of the the grounding electrode conductor with the metal raceway it was enclosed in.

I asked Gary to clarify his statement. I spend time here because I truly want to help. The convention even includes the subject "Electrical Code" what does that mean?

I was to discuss Electrical Safety and the GFCI, and AFCI and related subjects. Where am I finding the information? In the NEC.

I have spent many hours developing a video and slides that would have been well received by the members in Florida. I am still hoping that our misunderstanding about the "Qualified Person" issue will be settled.

I was only quoting the definition and suggested that training was in order for those who need that training.

![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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This may be OT but what is a HIs liability if they call something a hazard and it later turns out to be OK?


If that screws up a sale can the seller come back at you?


How does that work if it goes the other way and something is missed on an inspection?


Can the buyer come back at you?


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Yes and yes, for Greg.


As to the "qualified person" statement made way back, we have put that behind us, Joe.

Call me...


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Joe F…


Yes I agree with your statement and it is basically what I was trying to state in my response. I don't expect a HI to know the nec from cover to cover. I do believe it would be helpful though, in identifying potential problems, just like it would be helpful to know certain plumbing and hvac codes as well. I have yet to visit the other areas of this message board to just see what subjects are covered, but I just bet there are professionals in those other areas as well, willing and eager to lend a helping hand to a HI.


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Greg Fretwell wrote:
This may be OT but what is a HIs liability if they call something a hazard and it later turns out to be OK?
If that screws up a sale can the seller come back at you?


No.

Quote:
How does that work if it goes the other way and something is missed on an inspection?
Can the buyer come back at you?


Yes, with conditions.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Here is a link to my 2-nickels on the issue of model building codes as they apply to home inspections … icon_wink.gif


http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/viewtopic.php?p=10114#10114


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Jerry,


Come to NY. As of late, electrical inspectors have actually recommended in more than a few instances that Sellers sue nspectors for calling out elect5rical code violations where in the opinion of the AJH, there were none.

Never say never. Sellers have sued HIs for screwing up deals. I'm not saying they have won in all instances, and the occurrances are rare, bur suits are launched, nevrtheless.


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Joe that is what I suspected. Government inspectors, even contractors are usually covered by soverign immunity so if you want to sue them you are really trying to sue the state.


As a totally private inspector I was guessing you had your neck out.


I assume your contract tends to protect you from your customer but the other party may still feel his ox was gored.


In this “sue happy” world the only real protection from torts is poverty.


Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi to all,


I think that Rob summed it up well in his post last year, home inspectors not being code inspectors should for the most part be reporting on the condition of installed systems based on when they were installed.

For example, if I am reporting on an older electrical system that is only a 2 wire system and that fits in with the age of the home then I would not flag that as a major safety issue unless other issues presented a danger to the occupants, such as bad splices, missing covers etc.

Typically if I see any deviation from what would have been acceptable at the time the structure was issued an occupancy permit, I will note it in the report, and many times due to the age of thesystem and inspected defects will advise the client that the system should be further evaluated by a licensed contractor.

Regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Okkk…Hi’s should not quote code violations in their reports…correct?


If that is so, why do some HI's here need to dig so deep into electrical issues or even better yet, why do some HI's here quote the code?? I'm soooo confused. ![icon_confused.gif](upload://qv5zppiN69qCk2Y6JzaFYhrff8S.gif)

I mean lookie here.....just the other day there was a thread about wire sizes. Who cares!! If a HI says that the wire size is wrong, is he not then putting himself in jeopardy? Then there was the thread about voltage drops at an outlet. Again.....isn't that above the scope of a HI? Then there was conduit fill, and then pointy screws and then......well the list goes on and on. Is all of this stuff just nice to know stuff for a HI or are HI's actually putting this stuff to use in their inspections? If the latter is true, then, are HI's not putting themselves in jeopardy when reporting such deep electrical issues?


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Gerry:


I agree with you, and Robert's discussion is a good one.

If that paper can be revised to cover the entire area of inspections done by the HI, I would like to see it posted on a page in "Dear NACHI

Joe F has invited me to go along with him during an inspection as an observer, and perhaps through our eyes we both will come up with the items that are to be considered and reported.

However, one home would really not be enough, that's why I asked for a few reports including the electrical area, so I could make comments if necessary.

I have been helping some of the members here in this way through email questions they sent to me. For me this is the best way for me to learn more about your industry.

Also, if an existing service was inspected and passed by the local inspector, and there were no additional permits for any new work that was done, then the only comment is best described by your last paragraph.

Is there a boiler plate list that is available to members in the HI community?

PS: Maybe we could take up Dennis on his offer to tip a few beers and discuss our careers .... like the time I found all of my tools stolen one morning from my truck, or when I ate about four pounds of freshly cooked shrimp in a restaurant I was wiring in NYC years ago!




--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm