Summary
The bottom line is that the test button on the AFCI is the only recognized method for testing the proper operation of the AFCI. An AFCI indicator may be a nice way to determine if a particular circuit is connected to an AFCI, but it provides no definitive answer on whether an AFCI is properly working or not.
-- Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Summary
The bottom line is that the test button on the AFCI is the only recognized method for testing the proper operation of the AFCI. An AFCI indicator may be a nice way to determine if a particular circuit is connected to an AFCI, but it provides no definitive answer on whether an AFCI is properly working or not.
Marvelous. anybody want to buy a $325.00 Ideal doorstop
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I’m sure that as AFCI technology evolves, so will our testers/indicators. There’s not much difference in this article than the articles posted regarding GFCI testers - their internal test buttons are the only “recognized” method for properly testing their function.
In several cases, I have found that the internal test button will trip a GFCI receptacle but when an actual ground fault is applied, the GFCI won't trip.
Our instruments may not produce all of the necessary conditions that would open the circuit as required by the manufacturer, but they do produce a simulated condition that should produce the same results.
In any case, buying an instrument designed for testing does not automatically qualify us to do so. Learning how to operate the device and interpret the readings is the key to making qualified statements.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jpope wrote:
In several cases, I have found that the internal test button will trip a GFCI receptacle but when an actual ground fault is applied, the GFCI won't trip.
Jeff this is really not possible.
The way the test Burton trips a GFCI is a 'real' test, it is not simply a button that makes it shut off.
There is something else going on here.
-- Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: dedwards This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Just did a house this week where a GFCI receptacle would trip with the built in test button but I used three different GFCI testers on it and it would not. Two were Ideal SureTest devices and the third was a standard GFCI small hand held device. Do I know why it wouldn’t? No, but I wrote it up anyway because ALL of the electrical in this particular home had been “upgraded” by the homeowners’ brother-in-law and was a complete nightmare. I know a lot of people say never call for an evaluation but In this particular home I did call for a complete evaluation and analysis by a licensed electrical contractor. Two pages of electrical discrepancies and I am sure there were some I could not see. Trust your instruments but I always look at a home as “systems” and those systems all have to work together and when you start to see a trend of poor workmanship and you get weird or unusual indications its time to raise the BS flag and call in the professional.
Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
dedwards wrote:
Just did a house this week where a GFCI receptacle would trip with the built in test button but I used three different GFCI testers on it and it would not.
That is different than what Jeff described.
What you describe is common and generally means there is no grounding means available at the receptacle.
All hand held GFCI testers require a grounding means to operate.
-- Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: lkage This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
Just did a house this week where a GFCI receptacle would trip with the built in test button but I used three different GFCI testers on it and it would not. Two were Ideal SureTest devices and the third was a standard GFCI small hand held device. Do I know why it wouldn't? No...
Sounds like open or no ground...did your testers indicate that?
-- "I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei
Jeff as I have an idea that you are very capable and I believe you recently bought a 'wiggy' type tester I will share something with you.
A way to check for GFCI operation is this.
Ground one lead of the wiggy, sink facets are usually a good place to do this. Than take the other lead into the 'hot' slot of the receptacle.
If the receptacle is protected by a functional GFCI it will trip it.
If a grounding means is not withing reach you could use a three wire extension cord from a known grounded receptacle and stick one lead of the meter into the grounding hole than the other lead to the receptacle you want to check.
-- Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
If you see a GFCI that won’t trip with a standalone tester but still shows ground with the 3 light tester I suggest you have just found a bootleg ground. The EGC is bonded to the neutral beyond the GFCI.
YMMV whether the Suretest, Ecos or whatever would detect that.
That bootleg ground test only says the ground to neutral connection is > .1 (or so) ohm and < 1 ohm.
It is not hard to introduce 100 milliohms in a connection. The worse the installer, the easier it is to do
Originally Posted By: dedwards This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Yes, as I said this house had a laundry list of electrical discrepancies. Too long to go into here but there were mulitple receptacles that showed no ground yet when I took the time to remove the cover plate on some just to check my theory, there were ground wires visible. There were mixed ungrounded (2 wire) and grounded recepticles throughout the house that did not follow any kind of pattern one would normally expect to find in an upgrade. Some of the rooms had older two wire cables, other had grounded three wire but then some had both, with a mixed bag of two and three prong receptacals as well. Pretty much the typical stuff we see when someone who thinks they know how to wire a home attempts to upgrade. Wrong use of Romex (extension cords made from romex, runs of romex outside around the fascia board to power a security light system, stranded orange extension cords used for house wiring in the attic, Romex lying on the ground in the crawl space, and other “fun” stuff).
Originally Posted By: whandley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hey Bob;
I routinely run into the following scenarios:
1. Kitchen GFCI outlet trips manually, but will not trip with tester applied ground fault.
2. Kitchen GFCI outlet trips manually, but remains hot.
3. Kitchen GFCI outlet trips manually, down stream counter outlets are protected, but the subject outlet is still hot.
I've used the kitchen as an example, but it occurs in bathrooms, garages, exterior fixtures, etc... I'm also referring to structures built in 2000 and newer.
Your thoughts please...
-- I travel the globe to protect my clients!
Orange County Home Inspections
California Home Inspectors
www.progressiveinspection.com
Originally Posted By: rcoan This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hi All,
I've read a lot about the Ideal testers on this board and bought a 61-165 about 6 weeks ago. Three weeks ago I tested my first AFCI, when I pressed the test button it short circuited in my hand, that function was gone the rest of the test set still worked. I called and e-mailed Ideal they told me they made a design change and this will now test all brands of AFCIs.
They said they were sending me a new test set which I received today. I haven't had a chance to try it on an AFCI.
That's my story.
