Originally Posted By: David Suelflow
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Do you guys write up white wires used as hot and are not marked as such?
Do you guys write up white wires used as hot and are not marked as such?
Originally Posted By: jpope
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I do.
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Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”
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Originally Posted By: jpeck
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So do I.
Unless it is part of a cable, then it must be permanently reidentified, and must be permanently reidentified at all accessible locations, and ...
Simple answer is 'Yes.'
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Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: dvalley
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David Valley
MAB Member
Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
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"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."
Originally Posted By: tdove
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I report white wire use as a hot wire, it should be marked with black tape to indentied the wire as hot.
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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| tdove wrote: |
| I report white wire use as a hot wire, it should be marked with black tape to indentied the wire as hot.  |
Not really.
It could be red, blue, or some other color other than white (or green, not green either).
The code also states 'permanently reidentified by painting' or some other effective means, and tape can (and does) come off. We are not just talking about identifying a conductor to know what circuit it goes to, but the fact that it is no longer an neutral (no voltage) conductor and is a hot phase conductor. And, once marked at the panel, it must be marked at EVERY location where the conductor is VISIBLE and accessible. Make sure your statement includes those area also.
And that does not apply to any and all white wires. ONLY those part of a cable. And there are limitations on even those.
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Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: bbadger
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| jpeck wrote: |
| The code also states 'permanently reidentified by painting' or some other effective means, and tape can (and does) come off. |
The only person I know that does not consider tape 'other effective means' is Jerry.
In the 22 years I have been installing wires in 4 states no one has a had a problem with using tape as a means of re-identifying conductors. I can count on one hand the number of times I have used paint and that was because I did not have the right color of tape. 
If we believe that electrical tape always falls off then the fact that I am allowed to use tape to insulate live parts like a split-bolt wire connector will need to be questioned.
I do not recommend writing in your reports that a wire was re-identified with tape not paint.
Just two cents. Bob
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Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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| bbadger wrote: |
| In the 22 years I have been installing wires in 4 states no one has a had a problem with using tape as a means of re-identifying conductors. |
That is what I said.
Then I explained the WHY, re identifying white is different than identifying all the other colors. With the other colors, all you have to do is encircle the conductor with the tape.
How many times have you reidentified a WHITE, 6 AWG and smaller, conductor, to another color, where it was connected to the breaker?
THOSE are the conductors the code, and I, are referring to.
How many times have you reidentified a #12 AWG, WHITE, to black or some other color?
How many times was it NOT part of a cable?
How many times was it part of a cable?
How many times have you reidentified those #6 and smaller switch legs? HAVE you bothered to re identify those, at all visible and accessible locations?
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Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: bbadger
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Jerry we have talked about this subject before and the bottom line is we disagree.
I have read your arguments and I have read the code.
We see it differently nothing wrong with that. 
The members will have to decide for themselves what they want to report.
Bob
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Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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I was hoping you would answer those questions of how many times you think you’ve reidentified white #6 AWG and smaller, at breakers, switch legs, etc…
My guess is not very often.
You use the acceptance of that marking for larger conductors for these discussion on smaller conductors. Because you mix them together, I was curious about just the smaller ones. About how often - just the smaller conductors - I've acknowledge the accepted use of tape for larger conductors. Just looking to see how often you have to reidentify smaller conductors.
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Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: bbadger
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| jpeck wrote: |
| I was hoping you would answer those questions of how many times you think you've reidentified white #6 AWG and smaller, at breakers, switch legs, etc..
My guess is not very often. |
The majority of the jobs I work are cable jobs MC mostly some NM. NM is still used for a lot of commercial jobs in this area
I do not see the relevance of how many times I have re-identified small conductors.
My opinion is based on what I read in the NEC and my time in the trade.
Here is the code section in question.
| Quote: |
|
200.7(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).
(1)If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. |
The section continues but part (1) is the appropriate section for a white wire on a breaker.
The key point is "by painting or other effective means"
Your opinion is that tape is either not permanent or effective.
That is a fine opinion, however you have nothing in the NEC to support that.
The NEC does consider tape permanent enough to insulate a splice.
But you would say it is not permanent enough for identification? 
That is not logical.
JMO, Bob
--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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| bbadger wrote: |
| The section continues but part (1) is the appropriate section for a white wire on a breaker.
The key point is "by painting or other effective means" Your opinion is that tape is either not permanent or effective. That is a fine opinion, however you have nothing in the NEC to support that. The NEC does consider tape permanent enough to insulate a splice. But you would say it is not permanent enough for identification?  That is not logical. JMO, Bob |
Yes to the above WHEN referring to LARGER THAN #6 AWG.
200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
(B) Sizes Larger Than 6 AWG. An insulated grounded conductor larger than 6 AWG shall be identified either by a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length or at the time of installation by a distinctive white marking at its terminations. This marking shall encircle the conductor or insulation
No where in the code does it say, or even suggest, that this applies to #6 and smaller, in fact, the only reference or implication given in the code as to how to reidentify #6 and smaller white (for 50 volts or more) is:
200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes.
C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).
(1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.
(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.
(3) Where a flexible cord, having one conductor identified by a white or gray outer finish or three continuous white stripes or by any other means permitted by 400.22, is used for connecting an appliance or equipment permitted by 400.7. This shall apply to flexible cords connected to outlets whether or not the outlet is supplied by a circuit that has a grounded conductor.
FPN: The color gray may have been used in the past as an ungrounded conductor. Care should be taken when working on existing systems.
You should not be mixing:
200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors. (B) Sizes Larger Than 6 AWG.
with
200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors. (A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller.
and
200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes. (C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More.
| Quote: |
| The NEC does consider tape permanent enough to insulate a splice. |
Different tape, different adhesive, designed and intended for different uses. One is for color coding and one is for protecting and insulating.
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Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: jmcginnis
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Jerry…
Explain something to me please… you have mentioned “as part of a cable assembly” a few times in this thread… but it’s not clear what you are saying… it is my understanding of the code that you can’t even use the white colored wire as a hot unless it is part of a cable assembly, therefore if you came a across a white wire being used as a hot conductor in conduit then you would write it up in the report as wrong even if it was “permanently re-identified”. The exception only permits the use of the white color for a hot conductor if it is in a cable assembly. Then it must also meet the other requirements of the section. Yes?
Originally Posted By: bbadger
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200.6 is not relevant to this thread, that section explains how grounded conductors shall be identified.
We are not talking about a grounded conductors, this thread is about an ungrounded conductor.
200.7(C) tells us how and when it is permitted to re-identify a white conductor used as a ungrounded conductor.
--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: bbadger
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| jpeck wrote: | ||
Different tape, different adhesive, designed and intended for different uses. One is for color coding and one is for protecting and insulating. |
Both are identified for either purpose at least the tape I get.
Bob
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Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: tallen
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A wrap and a half.
Sorry to intrude
If you are going to re-identify a wire( say the white wire in a 10/2 romex on a double poll breaker) the new identifier( tape ,paint whatever ) should extend all the way into the conduit or raceway?
I am trying to say that a wrap of black tape at the breaker is not good enough. Am I wrong?
HI forum, HI forum 
Originally Posted By: bbadger
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Todd, it does not specify.
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Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: tallen
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Hmmm, I could have sworn that it had to be marked all the way, but I looked it up and like you say Bob, it does not specify. I was always taught to do it that way.
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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| bbadger wrote: |
| 200.6 is not relevant to this thread, that section explains how grounded conductors shall be identified.
We are not talking about a grounded conductors, this thread is about an ungrounded conductor. |
Gulp! You got me there. Okay on that one.
| Quote: |
| 200.7(C) tells us how and when it is permitted to re-identify a white conductor used as a ungrounded conductor. |
On the same token, then, do not mix "200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors. (B) Sizes Larger Than 6 AWG. ... or at the time of installation by a distinctive white marking at its terminations. This marking shall encircle the conductor or insulation." with "200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes. (C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3). (1) ... by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.
Like you said, they are referring to different things, and 200.7(C) does NOT say anything about "encircling" the conductors (implying 'with tape').
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Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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In the 2002 code change class Jim Pawley tried to get a fight started about using tape to reidentify white wires in cables with tape. About 150 inspectors and electricians all agreed it was OK. If they didn’t they weren’t willing to say so.