AFCI's

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#1

Originally Posted By: psmothers
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I was doing some reading on AFCI’s this morning and came across an interesting PDF that I though I would share. It talks about shared neutrals and AFCI.


http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Circuit%20Protection/Miniature%20Circuit%20Breakers/Arc%20Fault%20Circuit%20Interrupters%20(AFCI)/0760DB0203R902.pdf

--
Foxe Smothers

"Its not a matter of will we rebuilt it is matter of how soon..."

"A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five minutes longer."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

#2

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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I wonder if those neutrals have different tracers on them? To help prevent the neutrals from being crossed.

–
Jerry Peck


South Florida

#3

Originally Posted By: psmothers
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Are you referring to the new 4 conductor plus ground cable with independent neutrals that were referenced at the end of the PDF?

–
Foxe Smothers


"Its not a matter of will we rebuilt it is matter of how soon..."

"A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five minutes longer."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
#4

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Yes.

–
Jerry Peck


South Florida

#5

Originally Posted By: psmothers
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I have been trying to find an example for us to look at on the net but I have yet to locate anything. I guess they would have to be color coded on the wire sheating so that you could tell them apart. I will post if I can find anything else on them.

–
Foxe Smothers


"Its not a matter of will we rebuilt it is matter of how soon..."

"A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five minutes longer."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
#6

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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You should be able to keep the neutrals straight in cables but in pipe I have put a single wrap of tape on a neutral from a GFCI in the same color as the “hot”. Pick a strange color for the GFCI pair so it attracts your attention. (yellow or something)


I may be smoking a turd in NEC purgatory for it but it makes sense to me.

#7

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Greg Fretwell wrote:
You should be able to keep the neutrals straight in cables but in pipe I have put a single wrap of tape on a neutral from a GFCI in the same color as the "hot". Pick a strange color for the GFCI pair so it attracts your attention. (yellow or something)


I just separated these so my answer makes sense.

Quote:
I may be smoking a turd in NEC purgatory for it but it makes sense to me.


Yes, you are, BIG TIME.

Besides NOT BEING ALLOWED to do that, and doing so could create an unsafe condition for anyone who follows you, why not do it the RIGHT way and use a white or gray with a tracer color. Or just use gray for you GFCI neutrals and white for everything else?

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
#8

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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jpeck wrote:

Yes, you are, BIG TIME.

Besides NOT BEING ALLOWED to do that, and doing so could create an unsafe condition for anyone who follows you,


Not allowed by who? ![icon_question.gif](upload://t2zemjDOQRADd4xSC3xOot86t0m.gif)

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
#9

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Since it is illegal to “REidentify” a white wire in pipe it must just be “identified” and iot is still white. BTW where are you buying your “white with a tracer” THHN wire? My supplier was fresh out.

#10

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Bob,


Not allowed by the NEC. Greg is referring to 6 AWG and smaller (I am assuming this because he has referred to GFCi circuits, and I doubt you'd need a 6 AWG, much less anything larger than 6 AWG, for a regular GFCI circuit). ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

Greg,

If your supplier is "just out", wait for their next shipment, they should be able to get it in a couple of days.

If the contractor wants it, and asks for it, the supplier can get it. It the cost does not change much in full spools or reels.

The easy solution other than tracers is as I also stated, but you may have missed it, use gray (it IS allowed for use as neutral conductor color) for your GFCI neutrals. Use white for all your other neutrals.

Think "gray" for GFCI neutrals.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

#11

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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Jerry please cite the NEC section that prohibits what Gregg described.


We are talking about 2 wire circuits not multiwire branch circuits.

Say I have a raceway or cable with 6 two wire circuits in it.

Do I have to independently identify the white wires?

If I chose to mark them with a number to match the breakers would this be a violation?

Now instead of numbers I tell my guys mark the neutral of the GFCI or AFCI circuits with a strip of tape, still no violation no matter what size wire.

Bob

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

#12

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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bbadger wrote:
Do I have to independently identify the white wires?


Ha-ha. Now I see your confusion (or is it mine?).

Greg did not start off by stating he HAD to independently identify the white wires. He said he "put a single wrap of tape on a neutral from a GFCI in the same color as the "hot". Pick a strange color for the GFCI pair so it attracts your attention. (yellow or something) ".

That is what is not allowed.

Marking them a color other than an approved neutral color or especially "yellow or something".

Tagging with numbers or letters, absolutely no problem. Color coding them becomes a different matter.

200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
(A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller. An insulated grounded conductor of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length. Wires that have their outer covering finished to show a white or gray color but have colored tracer threads in the braid identifying the source of manufacture shall be considered as meeting the provisions of this section. Insulated grounded conductors shall also be permitted to be identified as follows:
(1) The grounded conductor of a mineral-insulated, metal-sheathed cable shall be identified at the time of installation by distinctive marking at its terminations.
(2) A single-conductor, sunlight-resistant, outdoor-rated cable used as a grounded conductor in photovoltaic power systems as permitted by 690.31 shall be identified at the time of installation by distinctive white marking at all terminations.
(3) Fixture wire shall comply with the requirements for grounded conductor identification as specified in 402.8
(4) For aerial cable, the identification shall be as above, or by means of a ridge located on the exterior of the cable so as to identify it.

"a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length" That is hard to do when part of it is color taped BACK, RED, BLUE, etc., isn't it?

Remember, not talking about larger than 6 AWG. Larger than 6 AWG can be "or at the time of installation by a distinctive white marking at its terminations. This marking shall encircle the conductor or insulation." I.e., the cable can be black, red, blue, etc. and color coded with tape.

This is another valuable item discussed on Mike Holt's new video. Mike gives a good discussion about color coding and why there is no reason why a good electrical contractor, who plans out his jobs, must resort to always 'color coding with tape'. In some instances, yes, but not as a matter of practice. Allowed? Yes. So is sloppy work (sort of allowed). Do you do sloppy work? No? Then why not plan out your colors too?

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
#13

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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To start with Jerry this was done under the 96 code and in 96 “grey” was a phase (no matter what the 277 guys were doing).


I still don’t see this grave danger either. A QUALIFIED person would not have a problem, figuring this out and an unqualified person should not be there.


BTW I was being facietious when I said 'fresh out". I have never seen THHN with white wire that has a tracer. Send me a picture of some and tell me who sells it.

#14

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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jpeck wrote:
bbadger wrote:
Do I have to independently identify the white wires?


Ha-ha. Now I see your confusion (or is it mine?).

Greg did not start off by stating he HAD to independently identify the white wires. He said he "put a single wrap of tape on a neutral from a GFCI in the same color as the "hot". Pick a strange color for the GFCI pair so it attracts your attention. (yellow or something) ".

That is what is not allowed.

Marking them a color other than an approved neutral color or especially "yellow or something".

Tagging with numbers or letters, absolutely no problem. Color coding them becomes a different matter.



Jerry there are only two ways to look at this

1)You can mark the whites with numbers or colored tape

2)You can not mark the whites with numbers or colored tape.

Quote:
"a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length" That is hard to do when part of it is color taped BACK, RED, BLUE, etc., isn't it?


Same as having a 1" long wire number fastened to the wire, do you think Greg was applying tape to the entire exposed length?

If as you say 200.6 prohibits using a colored tape when voluntarily marking a white, it also prohibits marking them with number tags.

Staying on the subject of marking a particular white wire of a two wire circuit I sure would be interested to know the hazard of using a colored tape.

A pinhead might think a single pink strip of tape on a white wire means it is a hot wire, I fail to see the danger in that.

Bob

By the way we do buy white with tracer for many jobs.

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
#15

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Greg Fretwell wrote:
To start with Jerry this was done under the 96 code and in 96 "grey" was a phase (no matter what the 277 guys were doing).


From the 1996 NEC.

200-6. Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
(a) Sizes No. 6 or Smaller. An insulated grounded conductor of No. 6 or smaller shall be identified by a continuous white or natural gray outer finish along its entire length.

Quote:
BTW I was being facietious when I said 'fresh out".


I knew that.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
#16

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Natural grey is NOT grey. There is nothing “natural” about the pigmemt in grey THHN. That was the natural color of the old rubber insulation before they add the black or red pigment. This anachronism existed in the code since the time of Edison until 2002 when CMP 5 finally acknowledged what 480/277 guys had been doing for years. It was never “legal”.

#17

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Greg,


The code has changed the terminology (but not the color) and has dropped the "natural" from in front of the gray.

Gray IS allowed as a color for the neutral (grounded) conductor. They also acknowledge that "gray" has, in the past, been used as an ungrounded "hot" conductor color, so they encourage extra safety when working with "gray" conductors.

However, as I stated, you CAN use GRAY as the neutral for the GFCI circuits as a means to identify the GFCI neutrals form your other neutrals.

This is a case where past practices IN SOME AREAS (it was not done all over) conflict with normal practices (i.e., using gray as a hot instead of a neutral conductor).

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

#18

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Grey was NOT legally used as a neutral before 2002. That is simply a fact and I heard it consistantly from code experts for many years in seminars. I bet your buddy Mike Holt would agree. Maybe Joe (who has as good credentials as Mike) will speak to that.


We all knew it happened but we also all knew it wasn’t strictly legal. If you want to argue about the letter of the law, as you did about my tape, you have to stay consistant.

#19

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Greg Fretwell wrote:
Grey was NOT legally used as a neutral before 2002.


Greg,

I really am trying to NOT argue with you, but you are wrong again.

This is from the 1996 NEC (the oldest code I have on my computer). Do you want me to look back further?

200-6. Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
(a) Sizes No. 6 or Smaller. An insulated grounded conductor of No. 6 or smaller shall be identified by a continuous white or natural gray outer finish along its entire length.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
#20

Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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Jerry: Explain why there is a fine print note to 200.6 in the 2002 that says gray was an ungrounded conductor if Greg is so wrong.

–
Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City