Water level or no water level?

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#1

Originally Posted By: jlybolt
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I was hoping to get some feedback in regard to water levels. I have thought about starting to use a water level as part of my foundation inspection. I am not sure if this is a good idea especially since I cant find any real hard core information as to allowable slope differential for existing dwellings.


It appears that neither the ACI or any code authority publishes a maximum allowable slope tolerance for existing slab-on-ground foundations and construction tolerances published by the American Concrete Institute (ACI) allow for a new slab to have a slope as high as 1.25 inches over 10-feet.


Does any body use this type of equipment?
Can anyone recommend were I could purchase this type of equipment?

Any information regarding to this would be appreciated.
Thank you.


    #2

    Originally Posted By: mboyett
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    James, after reading several threads here last year and talking to a couple of foundation/structural engineers I came to the conclusion that attempting to accurately measure and extrapolate meaning of foundation variations was beyond the scope of my abilities without exposing myself to much greater liabilities. For example, this would be beyond the scope of the state’s and NACHI’s SOP and you know what happens when we exceed those SOP’s. You better get absolutely right or it will open up additional liability issues. I decided to rely on an SE if/when I suspected a foundation slope issue and let them use the sophisticated measuring equipment. I’m not sure a water level would fall into that category however. Anyway, I know there are many HI’s that perform that task but I’ll refer my clients to an SE when warranted.


    If you are still wanting more info, one place to look is TRCC website under Publications, there are several pdf files there defining foundation & other construction requirements. Another is http://www.foundationinspectionnewsletter.com/

    #3

    Originally Posted By: rcooke
    This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


    jlybolt wrote:
    I was hoping to get some feedback in regard to water levels. I have thought about starting to use a water level as part of my foundation inspection. I am not sure if this is a good idea especially since I cant find any real hard core information as to allowable slope differential for existing dwellings.
    It appears that neither the ACI or any code authority publishes a maximum allowable slope tolerance for existing slab-on-ground foundations and construction tolerances published by the American Concrete Institute (ACI) allow for a new slab to have a slope as high as 1.25 inches over 10-feet.

    Does any body use this type of equipment?
    Can anyone recommend were I could purchase this type of equipment?

    Any information regarding to this would be appreciated.
    Thank you.

      Some carry a marble I carry a very small level cost $1:00 if I need to chack window door sills and it also confirms what I see . Works for me .
      Roy sr
      #4

      Originally Posted By: escanlan
      This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


      Quote:
      ? 1001.003. Practice of Engineering
      (b) In this chapter, ?practice of engineering? means the performance of or an offer or attempt to perform any public or private service or creative work, the adequate performance of which requires engineering education, training, and experience in applying special knowledge or judgment of the mathematical, physical, or engineering sciences to that service or creative work.


      Of most importance is the "judgement" issue. When you start measuring, reporting and making statements about foundation levels you are encroaching on what the licensed engineers refer to as a "Level B" inspection. Another good site is:

      www.houston-slab-foundations.info

      That's a lot of money to spend on a water level just to put yourself in the crosshairs of litigation or the TBPE! Of those that I know who own any level measuring equipment (short of a basic bubble level) do not allow the client to see it in use.

      Generally they use it just to confirm their suspicions. There are cheaper ways to do that. A small ball on a smooth surface works as well. A 4 foot level works well and there are many other ideas floating around out there.
      #5

      Originally Posted By: pdacey
      This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


      I use the ZipLevel Pro 2000. www.ziplevel.com. It’s the same instrument an engineer or foundation company will use to measure the slab (at least in this area).


      I measure all of the corners of the house and put that information in the report. It gives the client a reference point. If they feel they have a foundation problem down the road they have data from a specific date as to where the slab was when I inspected it.

      It also helps me confirm a foundation issue or takes the foundation out of the equation when looking at signs of movement throughout the house. In 2-1/2 years I have had only 3 foundations that I recommended further evaluation on. Just last week I had one that was 10-1/2" out from front to back. The house was only about 20' deep. Didn't really need to measure that one, the front door slipped right out of my hand when I opened it.

      #6

      Originally Posted By: ccoombs
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      I have seen many out of level foundations that were built this way and not the result of movement or other issues. I would venture to say that most out of level foundations are due to construction vs. movement or failure.


      I would think that the measuring equipment will show that virtually every slab on grade is out of level to some degree. But most of these will not be an issue. There should be other signs of problems before bringing in such equipment.

      It looks like the ziplevel is an electronic water level.
      I don't think that using a level to perform a survey of a slab is engineering without a license. However, it would be very easy to provide an opinion based on the results that would fall within the limits of engineering. This is were it would be important to define the scope of your work and the intended use of the information gathered. As an engineer I have never performed a water level survey of a slab, but I have been provided with the result to form an engineering opinion.

      #7

      Originally Posted By: pdacey
      This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


      ccoombs wrote:
      I would think that the measuring equipment will show that virtually every slab on grade is out of level to some degree. But most of these will not be an issue.


      This is very true.


      ccoombs wrote:
      It looks like the ziplevel is an electronic water level.


      Somewhat. It is actually filled with some type of gas. They are pretty secretive about it. You need to send it in about every 18-24 months for service.
      #8

      Originally Posted By: rcooke
      This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


      I can see alot of time being used here and other parts of the inspection suffering.


      I wonder if you do the cement floor do you also do the next floof too.


      How about the walls are they straight are they square ,how about the ceiling .


      This is getting deeper then I wish to go as an inspector .


      I like to try and follow the SOP and stay out of TROUBLE .


      Roy Sr.

      #9

      Originally Posted By: pdacey
      This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


      It takes less than 5 minutes to measure the four corners of the slab so it adds practically no time to the inspection. I will measure the second floor if it is visibly out of level.

      #10

      Originally Posted By: pdacey
      This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


      rcooke wrote:
      ....and other parts of the inspection suffering. .


      How would other parts suffer? I'm not following that logic.
      #11

      Originally Posted By: jlybolt
      This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


      I really appreciate everyones thoughts on this. The reason this even came up was because I did a four-plex dwelling that had no signs of structural movement anywhere. The brick looked good, no cracks in slab, ect., ect. I was concerned because about 80 percent of the doors within the structure would swing open by themselves when opened. As mentioned earlier, it is possible the foundation could have been built that way. Regardless I called it out as in need of further investigation and it ended up that the structure needed 18 piers. This really got me worried about foundations. If I only mentioned that there were doors would slowly swing open and that the foundation was performing as intended and later down the road the buyer now decides to sell and have an eng. look at the foundation. He is told that 18 piers are needed. Who picks up the bill?


      Probably me. Appareantly this is a high risk area. It almost seems that you have a 50/50 percent of getting it right. Add clay soils to the scenario, and then what?

      #12

      Originally Posted By: mboyett
      This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


      James, if you decide not to go the water level/zip level route yourself and want a couple of good SE’s here in Austin then let me know & I’ll provide their names and numbers to you.

      #13

      Originally Posted By: escanlan
      This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


      Quote:
      I was concerned because about 80 percent of the doors within the structure would swing open by themselves when opened.


      Without any other signs of foundation movement it could have been the foundation may have been poured unlevel as previously mentioned. Or could have been a poor job of hanging the doors.

      You know, this would make a good topic for a thread to help others. I've seen some creative methods used to hide foundation issues. Think I'll start a thread in MO area so people can speak freely.