What came first, the switch…or the door?

Specific Inspection Topics Electrical Inspections
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In a recent TikTok, Cy Porter put out a challenge to electricians to prove him wrong that light switches behind a door is a “code violation”. His question was, “Why in the world would you put a switch behind a door?” From a home inspectors perspective, it does seem like a fairly logical question, right?

Naturally, electricians nationwide set out to prove him wrong. NEC requires a “wall-mounted control device shall be located near an entrance to the room on a wall.” No mention of a door.

Then in a subsequent video, in typical CyFy style, he produces the Arizona Workmanship Standards for Licensed Contractors. And sure enough, on page 15, ”All boxes for switches should be located on the side of the doorframe opposite the hinge”. But, of course, he knew that already. He was baiting the electricians.

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Cy, to answer your question, in new construction switches aren’t installed behind doors, doors are installed in front of switches. Switch boxes and the wiring are installed on the rough, before the door. You should know that. Should it be corrected? Absolutely! The question is, by whom?

What more likely happens is the GC orders the wrong door, the finish carpenter installs the wrong door, or the customer changes their mind. I’ve seen it happen many, many times as an electrician’s helper. If the electrician is following the prints, this is on the GC not the electrician.

It does beg the question though, how would other inspectors approach this? It would likely land as an FYI in my report. It would also be nice to see @cporter7 defend his position here in the forum. I am not going to post the video, it should be fairly easy to find.

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I’ve seen his response video also and I agree with you that the boxes were there first..

At the same time, if he is doing warranty inspections and the switch is in the wrong location according to his state’s standards, does it really matter who created the issue? I’m guessing his clients are expecting him to at the very least make sure the homes they bought meet the minimum standards in his state.

Here’s the response video for convenience:

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Suggest that the buyer install a smart light or a motion detection switch. :light_bulb: :grinning_face:

I doubt anyone is going to replace the door to correct the issue.

But then again today I wrote up 2 rooms in a house that I inspected that had the switches installed at the entry into the rooms, but there were no light fixtures or switched outlets wired to them.

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I consider it a “defect,” although I don’t use “defect” as a category in my reports. In my opinion, it is more than an FYI, it is something I recommend be corrected.

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I see that from time to time. Usually on flips. Definitely a sign of hiring the cheapest guy (with little knowledge or ability). Makes you wonder how they get away with some of the things seen in flips. My conclusion is that the work was done without permits. No plans just wing it, couldn’t read plans if they existed.

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'Course it is only half a problem. When the door is closed - no problem ! It’s the other half of the time.

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So… it is NOT a code violation, it is an Arizona state standard… got it.

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From a basic safety standard, the switch should be in an easily accessible location.

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I wrote up one yesterday where the bath switches are all on the outside wall and not inside the bath. It violated common sense and no one will ever change it.

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Sometimes it’s the only option. This one is on the outside because the pocket door is on one side and the shower is on the other.

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This one the switches are inside the room just past the door because it would have been impractical to have the door open into the shower. Full disclosure, this is my house. When I put the basement bathroom in, I didn’t want to have the switches outside of the room like my man level bathroom.

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Building codes aside, though our job is not to evaluate or criticize adequacy of design, we are free to share our opinions about design when we see things that are impractical, illogical, or inconvenient.

As for the argument about the door coming after the wiring for the switch, as much as I’d like to defend the electrician, I can’t. The door itself may not be present when the electrician does his rough in, but the doorway is present. There is no good defense for an electrician putting a switch in an impractical location.

As I have mentioned, probably several hundred times, building codes establish minimum requirements. They do not, cannot, nor do they attempt to, account for every conceivable installation. The things we address as home inspectors may be specifically governed by a building code, but that is not always the case. We often see things that are not specifically addressed by building codes.

Expressing an opinion about something being unsafe, impractical, or inconvenient is always safer than making an accusation or assertion about something not being code compliant.

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every set of plans i have ever seen has a small symbol for the switch and it’s usually in the location where it goes on the wall. there is also usually another symbol for the door and it shows the direction of the swing, so the electrician can see where the door is going to be when it gets installed. the only way the electrician is wrong is not following the prints or using the wrong prints. it’s pretty easy to look at the prints and see who put the thing in the wrong place. i can’t recall a time i worked on a house without a print, except for small remodels. never built one without a print.

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LOL. A framed doorway doesn’t always tell the electrician what side to put the switches on.

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We see that a lot in older homes around here.

Had a weird one today. The light switch was in the bathroom but the fan switch was in the hallway.

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If by “code” he means the NEC he’s incorrect. Up until the 2020 NEC the wall switch for a bedroom could be installed in another room if that’s where the designer wanted it. The 2020 NEC added that the switch is required to be near the room entrance. It does not specify inside or outside of the room nor does it define what distance from the entrance constitutes near. A State or local code would be a different story.

2020 NEC:

210.70(A)(1) Habitable Rooms.
At least one lighting outlet controlled by a listed wall-mounted control device shall be installed in every habitable room, kitchen, and bathroom. The wall-mounted control device shall be located near an entrance to the room on a wall.

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“…shall be installed in every habitable room…”!!

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Yep, he’s referring to a state mandated two year warranty clause that contractors in Arizona have to abide by. It is saying NO SWITCH can be behind a door including the one required by NEC to be near the entrance to the room.

One of his examples was a four gang switch box behind the door. There were other doorways near the entrance that would have prevented the electrician to put the switches anywhere else without violating the “near an entrance” NEC rule, while keeping the switches in the room.

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"shall be installed in every habitable room. . . " refers to “At least one lighting outlet” NOT to ". . . controlled by a listed wall mounted control device [switch]. . . "

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When I was doing residential electrical work, we never got prints with the electrical system on them. Maybe it was only a local custom, but all electrical contractors were expected to layout the electrical system and record it on the prints after the wiring was complete. Commercial work was the opposite. We always had prints with all the electrical details.

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For sure.

In the case of the one I reported, there was no reason for it not to be inside the bath. Also that same half bath/powder room did not have ventilation. Neither are deal breakers, but in a very nice, expensive 40-year-old home and completely remodeled like this one, it was a “C’mon, are ya kiddin me?”

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If you’re saying that the switch has to be within the room you’ve misquoted the NEC requirement. The lighting outlet has to be in every habitable room not the switch.

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