Light Switch

Originally Posted By: lfranklin
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Is there a rule that light switches need to be at the entrance door. icon_question.gif


Or just common sense


Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Just common sense, for the most part.


There are a few locations that the NEC actually says where the switch needs to be.

Stairways - at least one switch per floor level or landing with an entrance.

Storage or Equipment Spaces - At least one point of control shall be at the usual point of entry to these spaces


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: rpalac
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Yes,


There are some NEC and ICC codes that apply. If I had my books I could be more helpfull.

The isue then becomes when was the house built. Most of these codes were written late 90's and 2003.

Specific standars lay out switch max. height and Min height.
Distance from door entrance at stairwell and bath/restroom areas.
They also spell out the landing size and door swing as well as hallway min. width.

Some apply to commercial/industrial and some to residential.

Bob P.


Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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rpalac wrote:
Yes,

There are some NEC and ICC codes that apply. If I had my books I could be more helpfull.

The isue then becomes when was the house built. Most of these codes were written late 90's and 2003.

Specific standars lay out switch max. height and Min height.
Distance from door entrance at stairwell and bath/restroom areas....

Some apply to commercial/industrial and some to residential.

Bob P.


Bob: Please find your books and show this. I have never seen, nor heard of it.


--
Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Quote:
Specific standars lay out switch max. height and Min height.
Distance from door entrance at stairwell and bath/restroom areas.
They also spell out the landing size and door swing as well as hallway min. width.


Not in the NEC the closest the NEC gets to spelling out where a switch can be is 404.8

Quote:
404.8 Accessibility and Grouping.
(A) Location. All switches and circuit breakers used as switches shall be located so that they may be operated from a readily accessible place. They shall be installed so that the center of the grip of the operating handle of the switch or circuit breaker, when in its highest position, is not more than 2.0 m (6 ft 7 in.) above the floor or working platform.


You can look in Article 100 for the definition of readily accessible.

I can't comment on ICC codes I no nothing about them.

There are ADA (Americans with Disability Act) rules for min and max height of switches in outlets in public buildings.


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Nothing in the ICC either.


I think Bob P. is thinking ADA, but that does not apply to residences.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: rpalac
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I hope I’m not wrong but I’ve been scouring the net to find the answers. I remeber during a confrence this past year a conversation regarding hieght and distance from entrance limitations as well as door swing direction.


I don't remember if it was ICC, IBC, IRC, or ADA It wasn,t NEC however there are references. When I return home in two weeks you bet this will be an item I will research.

I thought that a switch must be located at the public entrance of common hallways and within 48" of the door. Itwas not allowed to be located behind a door swing.

I can't recall the exactness or it's location but being an electrical contractor it stuck out in my mind.

I do know for fact that the ADA has definite values for all of this. see lynk: http://www.huduser.org/Publications/pdf/fairhousing/fairch5.pdf

I will follow up on the rest after I return in September.

Bob P.


Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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I just looked at the Florida Building Code and the only reference I can find is in the accessibility code (ADA Florida style).


11-4.2.5 says for a forward reach (as approached in a wheelchair) the height of controls, receptacles etc is from 15-48".


11-4.2.6 says if this can be approached for a side reach the height is 9" to 54". They don’t differentiate between receptacles, switches, dispensers or other “reachable” things.


There is no requirement in dwellings.


Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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There are accessibility rules that govern the height of everything, both in the ADAAG and the ANSI A117.1, but they don’t say anything about the location of such devices.



Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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lfranklin


I am reminded of a proposal I sent in once asking that the light switch be located within 3 feet upon entry, because I almost tripped and fell having to go further in the dark, they rejected the request and said this was a design issue. ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)

Personally, and using common sense, I would call out the location to be sure that it was easy to reach, and not located in a blind and darkened space.

This would help to ensure "practical safeguarding" for any person who will be exposed to this hazard, because it involves the use of electricity.

And then if you really want something when judging equipment, consider and evaluate any other factors that contribute to the practical safeguarding of persons using or likely to come in contact with the equipment




--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: lfranklin
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Thanks for the replies.


Looked for it all night. I don't think there is.


No wait a minute. Here it is look under common sense. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

Thanks again to all for your help


Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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My wife builds houses and one of her sanity checks is to insure there are no switches behind doors. (first during plan review and again after electric rough).


It will never draw a yellow tag but it does make the customer crazy.


Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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OK we seem to agree on the NECs lack of switch requirements. icon_cool.gif


Now just to stir things up does the NEC require that the switch for a bedroom be in the bedroom?

Can I locate the switch that controls the bedroom light in the hall outside the bedroom?

Can I locate the switch that controls the bedroom light in the living room?

Forget that the customer would flip out.


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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I say no, there is no requirement that the switch actually be in the room with the light, although it is certainly a poor design.


For some reason older homes in Florida have lots of switches that are not in the room.


The condo I used to own in Treasure Is had the kitchen light switch in the living room. I assume it was because there wasn’t a good piece of wall space in the kitchen for it.


Originally Posted By: lfranklin
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My guess would be that that need to be in the bedroom somewhere.


Then again there some exceptions to this. This is covered in the icc 1 to 2 family I think but may be wrong.


Thanks Bob, I see your sending me back to the book. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)


Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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210.70(A)(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.


The outlet has to be in the room but I am not sure if that also means the switch has to be.


Originally Posted By: lfranklin
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Uncle, Uncle icon_redface.gif



E.3803.2-Reads the same way.


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Bob Badger wrote:
Now just to stir things up ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif) does the NEC require that the switch for a bedroom be in the bedroom?

Can I locate the switch that controls the bedroom light in the hall outside the bedroom?

Can I locate the switch that controls the bedroom light in the living room?

Forget that the customer would flip out.


Bob,

This is a post I just did yesterday on another forum, about something related. It fits the above questions perfectly. (But does not give a definite answer as there is none.)

Nothing addresses this in the code, but the bedroom must have a door which can close for privacy, and, no door, still part of the bedroom.

R201.4 Terms not defined. Where terms are not defined through the methods authorized by this section, such terms shall have ordinarily accepted meanings such as the context implies.

Main Entry: 1bed?room
Pronunciation: -"r?m, -"rum
Function: noun
: a room furnished with a bed and intended primarily for sleeping
- bed?roomed /-"r?md, -"rumd/ adjective

Main Entry: 1room
Pronunciation: 'r?m, 'rum
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English rum; akin to Old High German rum room, Latin rur-, rus open land
1 : an extent of space occupied by or sufficient or available for something <in the country where there is room to run and play>
2 a obsolete : an appropriate or designated position, post, or station b : PLACE, STEAD <in whose room I am now assuming the pen -- Sir Walter Scott>
3 a : a partitioned part of the inside of a building; especially : such a part used as a lodging b : the people in a room
4 : a suitable or fit occasion or opportunity : CHANCE <left no room for doubt>
- roomed /'r?md, 'rumd/ adjective

210.70(A)(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.

Now, taking that room by itself, does it have a wall switch-controlled lighting outlet if the wall switch is not in that room? Close the bedroom door. Where is the wall switch-controlled light's required switch? IF not in that room, does it now still have a wall switch-controlled light? What if the switch is downstairs, down the hall, and in the kitchen?

WHERE CAN it be to still fulfill the requirement for a wall switch-controlled light?

What does everyone say?

Bob B.?
Joe T.?
Bob P.?
Randy?
Joe F.?
Mike P.?
Dennis?
and everyone else who wants to provide an answer.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: tallen
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210-70 exception 3 permits sensors in leiu of an actual switch. Which tells me a (switch of some kind) must be present in every habitable room.



I have put the past behind me,


where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.


www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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tallen wrote:
210-70 exception 3 permits sensors in leiu of an actual switch. Which tells me a (switch of some kind) must be present in every habitable room.


Todd,

I assume you mean Exception 2?

Exception No. 2: Lighting outlets shall be permitted to be controlled by occupancy sensors that are (1) in addition to wall switches or (2) located at a customary wall switch location and equipped with a manual override that will allow the sensor to function as a wall switch.

Just means that if you have a sensor controlled light, it must have either (1) a wall switch anyway (the sensor is "in addition to" the wall switch), or (2) the sensor can be built into the wall switch, so you have the wall switch anyway (the sensor has a built in manual switch - the wall switch).


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida