Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
AS a person who speaks alot on AFCI breakers and their need and use I have actually seen them in test situations protect life and property. The idea of a AFCI is that it can determine OK arcs from NOT OK arcs and they do this with some highly sensative technology and it is getter better all the time.
The normal arc between a connection point like a switch will not effect an AFCI yet a arc between lets say contact points on a recept or extention cord will activate the AFCI....so the potential for lives saved is always better with more awareness and product development.
Now with that said...so some people see problems with AFCI's...sure with the older models but not much with the newer ones...I personally as a EC do not get alot of calls with AFCI's tripping.....just do not see it alot these days as some would lend to believe....
But in the effort to try and saves lives of people who are bed written ( not sure how to type that ) or the elderly the advent of the AFCI will save lives.
Now the debate is should this more over be recommended for older homes lets say from the 70's to the early 90's..we my opinion that all homes in that period should upgrade their bedroom circuits to AFCI...but thats me...the NEC does not require turning back time so to speak.
I have even gone as far as in a seminar I did recently on AFCI's to suggest homes from the 1960's and up to pre-2001 think about installing AFCI's in the bedroom circuits.....Now some will say..sure paul to create a quick buck....but thats not it.
What we see in homes that mature...the home owners desire more power with less plug options so they use more and more extention cords and so on...adapters and what have you...all creating a possible issue and it is my belief ( and some will disagree...it's america so thats fine.. that being safer is well worth the added expense of $ 40-60 dollars per circuit and most homes will not have over 2-3 in all.
Do I think the AFCI will expand...oh yes...I honestly do to the point it will be required in bedrooms, living areas, finished basements ( excluding kitchens and dining areas ) But again...who am I....no body really !
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: wdecker This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
In any house, regardless of age of code grandfathering, I call out any GFCI or AFCI protection missing according to current standards. I call these out as a safety issue.
Lets face it, with AFCI breakers its pretty easy and inexpensive to add this protection to an older house.
Had a client who didn't heed my recommendation to add GFCIs to bathrooms. His son got a bad shock and was in the hospital for 2 days. They should have listened.
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
wdecker wrote:
In any house, regardless of age of code grandfathering, I call out any GFCI or AFCI protection missing according to current standards. I call these out as a safety issue.
As a recommended upgrade, this would be reasonable. Calling these out as safety issues is not.
Older homes are not required to meet current standards.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: wdecker This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Jeff;
"As a recommended upgrade, this would be reasonable. Calling these out as safety issues is not.
Older homes are not required to meet current standards."
This goes without saying. No home inspector (that I am aware of) has the ability or the authority to 'require' anything.
All I am saying is that when I report stuff like this, I always recommend that the current safety standard be met because our state SOP defines 'Significantly deficent' as any system, component or item that 'does not function or is a safety hazard'.
If the current safety standards, set by one of the various non-governmental associations, is such and such, that is what I will use to judge whether something is a safety hazard or not.
Is a house built in 1970 has no GFCIs in the bathrooms, I would call that a safety hazard. If a house built in 1990 does not have GFCI protection in the bedrooms, I would call that out as a safety hazard.
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
wdecker wrote:
All I am saying is that when I report stuff like this, I always recommend that the current safety standard be met because our state SOP defines 'Significantly deficent' as any system, component or item that 'does not function or is a safety hazard'.
So driving a vehicle without air bags is a safety hazard? Or would it be prudent to say - not as safe?
There is a big difference between a safety hazard and a condition that is less safe. That is the basis for the evolution of building codes.
wdecker wrote:
To do so is the only moral thing to do.
Providing misinformation is not morally correct. When you inform a client that safety hazards exist simply due to the fact that the building does not meet current building standards, you are providing misinformation.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Will, AFCI protection is not necessarily that simple. Lots of older homes have panels that won’t take an AFCI. You also can’t put an AFCI on a multiwire circuit.
Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
pabernathy wrote:
AS a person who speaks alot on AFCI breakers and their need and use I have actually seen them in test situations protect life and property. The idea of a AFCI is that it can determine OK arcs from NOT OK arcs and they do this with some highly sensative technology and it is getter better all the time.
Paul I have some prime Pennsylvania beach front property to sell you. 
All I am trying to say is that IMO you should be much more skeptical about the abilities of the AFCIs on the market.
Let me be clear, IMO AFCIs could be the best the thing to come along for electrical safety. I also agree that they will get better.
I also would never think of ignoring the NEC requirements to install them.
BUT, It is a fact the the AFCI manufacturers exaggerated (LIED) about the AFCIs current capabilities to the code making panels way back in 1996-97 for the 1999 NEC.
I have had discussions with CMP members that are very upset about this entire issue. Basically the NEC is being used as a sales tool for the manufacturers. Presently ECs and Home builders are being used as the testing means for this new technology. Looks like the manufacturers took a hint from the makers of software. Why pay for in house testing when we can release the product now and see what happens.
Currently available AFCIs can not detect series arcs (think loose connection) only parallel line to line arcs (think spark from hot to neutral) and the currently available AFCIs can only detect parallel arcs above about 70 amps.
As it stands today the feature of an AFCI that adds the most protection is not the arc signature sensing but the included 30 to 50 ma GFCI portion.
I have high hopes that AFCIs will become what they promise to be, I believe they could offer much added safety.
That does not change the fact that currently homeowners are being used as the testing grounds to improve the technology and the NEC is being used to force this.
-- Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
Paul I have some prime Pennsylvania beach front property to sell you
Ok..Bob...where is it at as I have some money to waste...lol
Anyway on the AFCI issue, I have actually seen them work and all I am saying is ( even Mike Holt now agree's ) they are a step in the safer direction.
Over the years we have placed a value on GFCI and it's technology which was looked on the same way when it first came out...but their is NO doubt they have saved lives.....IMO the AFCI is no more a selling item for the NEC as the book itself...much less the price of a GFCI unit as well...
When the GFCI first came out for panels it was the cost of the current AFCI's and then along came the recept. versions.....I believe the same will come with the AFCI and in fact some of the newer AFCI's being tested now are combined GFCI and AFCI units.......which will in any event probably bring down the new-ness as well as the price.
As for the client.....I really dont care if they cost $ 35.00 or $ 65.00 as my client will pay for it if I tell them thats what I am putting in and thats what the NEC states....so when we think about jumping out of a perfectly good airplane do we not think FIRST of a parachute....for safety.
I think the AFCI idea is solid and lets be glad it is only bedroom circuits because as they expand them and perfect them it probably will grow to other areas of the home...in fact almost a guarantee.
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
pabernathy wrote:
Anyway on the AFCI issue, I have actually seen them work and all I am saying is ( even Mike Holt now agree's ) they are a step in the safer direction.
You have not seen them work in the field have you? 
I have never on any forum said that AFCIs where less safe than other OCPDs.
Are they safer?
Tough call, personally I doubt the current versions provide any greater safety than a typical GFCI.
pabernathy wrote:
Over the years we have placed a value on GFCI and it's technology which was looked on the same way when it first came out...but their is NO doubt they have saved lives.....IMO the AFCI is no more a selling item for the NEC as the book itself...much less the price of a GFCI unit as well...
I wish you would talk to some of the CMP members, they feel that the technology was not ready to be made a requirement.
The manufactures could have released the AFCIs without them being required by the NEC. If done that way the technology could have been tested and improved by people who where willing.
Quote:
As for the client.....I really dont care if they cost $ 35.00 or $ 65.00 as my client will pay for it if I tell them thats what I am putting in and thats what the NEC states....
As will all clients as it is not a choice.
I have a very large problem with a code requiring an item that may or may not work as promised.
pabernathy wrote:
I think the AFCI idea is solid and lets be glad it is only bedroom circuits because as they expand them and perfect them it probably will grow to other areas of the home...in fact almost a guarantee.
Yes it is a great idea and until I learned about some of the BS that the manufactures are slinging I was for them in every circuit.
I do believe the defiances will be worked out and at some point an AFCI will be made that works as well as promised.
Until then IMO they should be optional.
-- Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bob,
So where again is this ocean front property...lol
Actually, I have seen video's of them working in the field as well as demonstractions at events I have spoken at. The concept is solid in that it is working on a specific intent reason and it is actually expanding as they get even better.
Yes, I run into ALOT of fellow electricians who would like the AFCI to be an option but if you think about it....no harm to foul as it is simply a breaker you put on the bedroom circuit....heck pick up a hall plug.....pick up the master bath and so on......really should not effect the way we wire a house anyway....it just effects the breaker we use in the panel so I do not really sweat it.......again the client pays for it.....We are just following the rules.
Ahhhhh....lol....I get it Sir Bob.....you hate that government control..lol....are you a mad max fan..thehehehe......just teasing ya Bro.
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: Jay Moge This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
o.k guys, answer this one. if you predict that “most” if not all cuircuts will be required to be AFCI protecte, then why can’t you just make the main shut off an AFCI and call it done. can that ever work???
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Man I have been waiting for someone to ask that since this thread started.
Jay when you think of AFCI you think of specific locations and protection and what have you...now if the main breaker was AFCI imagine what it would take to actually TRIP it...and would you allow it to control the entire panel...in other words instead of removing the circuit that has the problem...it cuts them all off....
How...think about that for just a sec. and then reply...lol.....you will come to your own conclussion to why a whole house AFCI would not be practicle...
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: Jay Moge This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
good point. what about (pipe dreams … i know) if it were set up like a fire alarm system. one main board, and seperate indicators for each cercuit. one major arc fault, trip system, indicating where the problem is…no that would be major overkill huh…well i tried, your right. afci main is no good. thanx for the education, i love reading this stuff.
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Jay,
As a AFCI Nut myself and a speaker on AFCI you can imagine some of the things I have come up with as a solution to whole house systems but at the end of the day the COST will play a major roll in this market.
Yes, AFCI's in my opinion ( sorry bob ) do save lives.....now the cost is a toss up for clients but getting electrical contractors ( like myself ) to ever invest in a whole house monitored AFCI system which would as stated above as impracticle because of the nature of the individual circuits.
Now some hot shot engineer will think of something but again at the end of the day...size, cost, installation and well complex function to the end user will keep it very basic...besides their are some things that just will not need AFCI protection....
But it is forward thinking minds ( Like Yourself ) that give the brain childs of the market drive to create the " Pipe Dream "
Glad you enjoy the forum.....I have to agree it is GREAT !
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
