Why did they do this?

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21

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Not wanting to start anything, but the incorrect use of terminology in some of the above posts can lead to confusion on the part of those ‘not quite sure’ of what is being discussed.


First, I will start out with a rather radical, but simple statement (and which is entirely true).

Forget the terms 'main panel' and 'sub panel' when looking at panels.

Think in terms of 'is this the service equipment' or 'this is not the service equipment'.

The grounds and neutrals may be either bonded together, or isolated from each other, at main panels. Whether the panel is a 'main panel' or 'sub panel' has no bearing on the neutral / ground being bonded to each other or being isolated from each other.

The neutral is bonded to ground AT THE SERVICE EQUIPMENT ONLY. If the service equipment happens to contain a panel, so be it. If the service equipment is only a main disconnect, so be it. The neutral IS BONDED TO GROUND AT THE SERVICE EQUIPMENT.

Radical? No, just accurate, true, and simple to remember.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

22

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Jerry if you look at my post it says this.


Quote:
Yes, that is correct, the only place neutrals and grounds can be joined is at the location of the main disconnect. (Service Disconnect in NEC speak)


Can you point out the part that is incorrect use of terminology.

I also said

Quote:
Any other location they must be separated, the NEC never uses the term sub panel, but we all do and any sub panel must have isolated neutral bars.

FYI A sub panel is considered as load side equipment.

Code types if interested look to 250.142(B) & 250.24(A)(5)


Again where is the incorrect use of terminology.

Just wondering, Bob

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum
23

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Bob,


I didn't direct that to you (notice that there was no name at the top), it was directed to all in general, because it is an all too common problem.

Such as with this one from above.

Quote:
So the ground and neutral bus's should be bonded in the main panel but the bond should be removed in the sub panel.

Do I understand that correctly?
John


Do you agree that proper terminology (at least here) is important so that HIs stop thinking "main panel" this and "sub panel" that? With neutral being bonded to ground or the neutral being isolated from ground, it's the "service equipment" which needs to be remembered, right.

Anything wrong with that statement?

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
24

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Main panel sub panel are terms pretty well understood by all.


The same as Hot and Neutral, in place of ungrounded and grounded.

I was told that my posts where to technical and we (you & I ) might just be making it to dull to follow. ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

Yes I asked for clarification when asked about a ground bus as that question could go either way.

So you will see me continue to use terms like hot, neutral main and sub panels.

Shoot thats how I talk shop in person anyway the only time I go technical is at forums.

Bob

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

25

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Bob Badger wrote:
Main panel sub panel are terms pretty well understood by all.


Apparently not understood by all, because there is much confusion over where the neutral is bonded to ground and where it is isolated from ground.

Think "at the service equipment". Now, that is a pretty simple concept for all to grasp.

Bob Badger wrote:
So you will see me continue to use terms like hot, neutral main and sub panels.


No problem with that, I do it a lot also. However, in some cases, such as the above, specificity is required to avoid confusion.

Which is simpler and easier to understand?

1) Where is the neutral bonded to ground? At the main panel ... BUT, only if the main panel is part of the service equipment.

2) Where is the neutral bonded to ground? At the service equipment.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
26

Originally Posted By: rpalac
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The jargon is just as important as the representation of it.


I just was consulted to re-inspect a building due to an unhappy seller and buyer. The inspector wrote to remediate a breaker........WHAT IS THAT #$$%$$#^*&*^%-head should have just written remove the breaker and replace with xyz type breaker of xyz amp rating.

He used terminology that did not fit the subject that made him less credible by anyone who read it with some knowledge. Now this is a light example. (no pun intended) But fact is fact you don't refer to something as a thingamajig when you write it up. Do You?

In the electrical industry the is very specific terminology that is uniform through out. Line side, load side, feed, travelers, GFCI, GFI, MDP, Main Distribution Panel, SUB PANEL, grounding, grounded.

These terms should be understood by who ever is referring to them. I'm not perfect we all make errors. ( well I'd like to believe not) But we need to set forth to sound as though we have a grasp of the situation and continue to learn more.

Here's a good example:

Did you ever see someone point to a sidewalk and say, Look at the cracks in the cement work"

WRONG-O-JOCK-O!!!!
Cement is the glue the binds the material together, Concrete is the whole substance they are referring to. If I was on an onsite with a superintendent , GC, or fellow project engineer, I don't think I would hear the end of it.

Sounds trivial, but it's important to the players.

By the way , who's watching the eagle win that WATCHYAMACALLIT game today!

Bob

27

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


rpalac wrote:
The jargon is just as important as the representation of it.


In the electrical industry the is very specific terminology that is uniform through out. Line side, load side, feed, travelers, GFCI, GFI, MDP, Main Distribution Panel, SUB PANEL, grounding, grounded.


Thus the reason for referring to the location the neutrals are bonded to ground as being at "the service equipment".

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
28

Originally Posted By: wpedley
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check this out…talk abour Harry Homeowner/electrician icon_rolleyes.gif icon_rolleyes.gif icon_rolleyes.gif













BPedley

29

Originally Posted By: Gino Conner
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Well, while we are in the panels making things right, let’s reidentify those white wires going to the breakers on the left side of the main panel. Sorry, this wire reidentification is a pet peeve of mine. icon_biggrin.gif

30

Originally Posted By: rpalac
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Here we go again!!!


>

31

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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BPedley


They are doing this S*** right now on new construction here in Ohio.

I am not kidding.

Mike P.

32

Originally Posted By: wpedley
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Mike,


The statement I recieved from the owner was

that he didn't want to wait for power company so he did it himself

OOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!! ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)






BPedley

33

Originally Posted By: kwilliams
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These are all from the same house I did the other day



Anybody want to change a water filter ![icon_question.gif](upload://t2zemjDOQRADd4xSC3xOot86t0m.gif)

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/95redoak003.JPG

duck tape at work, well maybe for a while

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/95redoak004.JPG

Light at bottom of stairs

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/95redoak002.JPG

Not a very good ground

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/95redoak007.JPG

Light in main hallway

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/95redoak006.jpg