Why didn't you remove the cover, asked the Judge?

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Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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Eric,


Once the dead front cover has been removed, there is not a whole lot of difference between "working inside" and "looking inside".

Once that protective cover is off ... it's a whole 'nother ball game. The NACHI SoP recognizes that the inspector must make that decision (to remove the cover and look inside, or not to) himself (as Russel pointed out with his SoP posting).

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Originally Posted By: evandeven
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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Quote:

Once the dead front cover has been removed, there is not a whole lot of difference between "working inside" and "looking inside".

There is a huge difference. Looking is just that. Working implies that something is going to be done, as in, breaker change, removal of breaker to check buss bar, etc.

Once the panel cover is off, you see a double lug. You write it up.

When the electrician comes out and removes the cover, he looks at the double lug and then decides how to correct it. At that point, he is about to perform work. When he actually does it, now he is working.

The reason we take off the cover is to visually determine if anything is wrong inside. That is it. Of course, there are those who won't even remove a panel cover if it says FPE or Zinsco(cop out), but that is another matter altogether. 

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Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com

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Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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evandeven wrote:

Quote: Once the dead front cover has been removed, there is not a whole lot of difference between "working inside" and "looking inside". There is a huge difference. Looking is just that. Working implies that something is going to be done, as in, breaker change, removal of breaker to check buss bar, etc.

No, once the dead front cover is OFF. consider yourself at risk of something arcing and blowing up in your face. Whether you are "looking" or "working" on it, the protective cover is no longer there.

THAT is the big difference.

WHAT you are doing is of little consequence when the cover it off.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Originally Posted By: rray
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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My cop out is related to my state and my County, and legislative and case law in the same. You do things differently in your state, hopefully with the advice of your counsel.


I have a certain protocol that I follow so that my inspections don't take three days like JP's do. If I were a consultant, or perhaps suing an electrician who had done some work on my home, it might be different.

For example, my protocol would be something like this:

(1) Is it an FPE or Zinsco panel?
If yes, quit and write it up as needing an electrician's evaluation.
If no, continue.

In all instances, my Clients know exactly what I do, what I don't do, why I can do, and what I can't do. It's a matter of education.

Part of the inspection protocol that I have put together with advice from counsel takes into account that a licensed electrician can (and probably should) find things that I won't find. To that end, this paragraph is prominent in my report:

Quote
Inspectors are generalists, are not acting as experts in any craft or trade, and are conducting what is essentially a visual inspection. Home inspectors generally know something about everything and everything about nothing. State of California law, therefore, requires that inspectors defer to qualified and licensed experts (e.g., plumber, electrician, et al.) in certain instances. If inspectors recommend consulting specialists or experts, Client agrees to do so at Client?s expense. Because such qualified personnel are experts, it is possible that they will discover additional problems that a home inspector generalist cannot. Any listed items in this report concerning areas reserved to such licensed experts should not be construed as a detailed, comprehensive, and/or exhaustive list of problems or areas of concern.
Unquote

If, as a home inspector, I pretend to be an electrician, then I should find everything, and if I don't, then courts have come down on the other side, either wanting to know why I didn't find something or wanting to know what I am practicing the electrical trade without a license. Either way I lose.

By being consistent (and therein lies the problem for most home inspectors who wind up in court, lack of consistency) and educating all concerned, I win. So since I already have made a business decision with advice from counsel that there are problems with FPE and Zinsco, I don't need to go any further at the electric panel. Recommend a licensed electrician and I'm okay.

Now that doesn't preclude me from looking at other electric panels on the same property, or other parts of the electric system.

So, rather than condemning another inspector because of his business decisions with advice of counsel, just realize that there are regional differences, usually based on commonality in an area, or, in my case, lots of advice from counsel.


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Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.

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Originally Posted By: rray
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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Hey, Eric.


Since you are in Florida, and rather you and I go round and round, pretend like you are Jerry Peck (also in Florida) and read all of his posts and all of my posts. You'll see that Jerry and I are 100% on opposite ends of just about everything. That's not because either of us is wrong; it's because Florida and California are different.

I spent about $165,000 putting this company together, much of that going to counsel to research issues for me. I still pay them to research issues. And nothing anyone can say, including any condescending statements from people in different states, will convince me to change my business practices. Only California courts and my attorneys will convince me to change.

We have the same type of disagreements on our HomeTeam Intranet, always between the California and Florida franchises, so nothing is new to me here. Just the names have changed to protect the innocent. 

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Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.

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Originally Posted By: evandeven
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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Quote:

We have the same type of disagreements on our HomeTeam Intranet, always between the California and Florida franchises, so nothing is new to me here. Just the names have changed to protect the innocent.

Russell,
That's cause you guys on the west coast do everything backwards! Just kidding!

The only thing I would have a problem about is if an inspector refused to remove a cover that was clearly accessible, just because it said FPE or Zinsco. I would like some of the electricians opinions on this.
If you were not to remove a cover just because of the name, why remove any of them at all?

Quote:

Since you are in Florida, and rather you and I go round and round, pretend like you are Jerry Peck (also in Florida) and read all of his posts and all of my posts. You'll see that Jerry and I are 100% on opposite ends of just about everything. That's not because either of us is wrong; it's because Florida and California are different.

Na Russel,
Jerry is never wrong...at least in his own mind!
See below.

Quote:

No, once the dead front cover is OFF, consider yourself at risk of something arcing and blowing up in your face. Whether you are "looking" or "working" on it, the protective cover is no longer there. THAT is the big difference. WHAT you are doing is of little consequence when the cover it off.

You are at risk just getting up every day and the mere act of touching the cover may put you in peril. It could blow up and arc with the cover on. I know, I have seen it firsthand. Wander over to "Shaker Village" in Tamarac and you will know exactly what I mean.
There is a difference between "looking" and "working" wether you want to admit it or not.

Each inspector has to make a decision on how much risk they are willing to take. If you don't do something that everyone else is doing, it may be hard to back up your reasons if needed.

Getting back to the initial topic, if there is a sticker on the panel that is similar to the one pictured, then unless you shut the power off to the panel, we shouldn't be removing any of them.

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Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com

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Originally Posted By: rray
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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evandeven wrote:

If you were not to remove a cover just because of the name, why remove any of them at all?

With FPE and Zinsco, I'm going to recommend that the panel be inspected by an electrician. At that point, what more do I really need to do? Does it make any difference that there might be more problems inside that panel? I say no. Would it surprise me if there were? Again, no. It doesn't matter if I don't find any other problems because, Guess what? I'm still going to recommend that an electrician look at the panel.

Take an extreme scenario. Let's say your local Home Depot found a brand new FPE panel hidden in their stock and actually sold it to a guy renovating a home. The panel was beautiful, and the guy was so happy because he was able to replace his original FPE with a brand new FPE. Now you go to inspect the house for the buyers. Darned if the panel doesn't look brand new. Yet it still says FPE. Whatcha gonna do? I'm going to recommend an electrician look at it.

So, FPE and Zinsco. Don't care whether there are hundreds of other problems in the panel or no other problems in the panel. I'm going to recommend an electrician look at it. So I consider it a waste of my valuable time to do more when doing more doesn't do any more for my Clients.

Business decision.

[quote="evandeven"]If you don't do something that everyone else is doing, it may be hard to back up your reasons if needed.
No doubt. And therein, I believe, lies the problem with the home inspection industry. There are no true national standards in this business. Every trade association's SOPs have those cute little words that we all use in our own reports, as a matter of fact: "is not required to," "in his opinion," "if accessible," etc. How many of us (I don't) include the SOPs with the report so that everyone can read all those cute little disclaimers?

If an electrician came out to my house to do work and something was not accessible, he would make it accessible, sometimes destroying my prized succulent in the process. I guess they have that privilege under law because I've never heard of an electrician or plumber or any other licensed individual being sued for destroying plants. I, on the other hand, try to never cause damage to plants. I just note that it was not accessible due to vegetation and take a picture of it.

evandeven wrote:

Getting back to the initial topic, if there is a sticker on the panel that is similar to the one pictured, then unless you shut the power off to the panel, we shouldn't be removing any of them.

Definitely agree. Unfortunately, there are those macho home inspectors who must prove to the world that such stickers don't apply to them. And then, as you previously stated, "If you don't do something that everyone else is doing, it may be hard to back up your reasons if needed." Indeed.


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Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.