Why didn't you remove the cover, asked the Judge?

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Please answer the question, and please don’t take this this subject off topic!


Question: Do you remove panel covers to inspect the circuits at the service equipment, and at panels in readily accessible locations?

If not please tell me why.


How could anyone leave this situation without reporting it to the person who hired you to make an inspection?

![](upload://qTDLp5HhhrbnQy7aRmpjX1eJLrz.jpeg)

Please answer the question, and please don't take this this subject off topic!


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: jhagarty
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Joe T:


It appears from the breaker tab that this is a FPE Stab-Lok Panel.

I do not remove the panel covers on Stab-Loks. I would note the Stab-Lok panel and recommend further electrical evaluations for replacement.


--
Joseph Hagarty

HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.

Originally Posted By: rfarruggia
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and with that many lines going to the neutral buss, there has got to be a ton of double tapped breakers above.


Shouldnt the neutral service entry be attached to the big slot at the end of the buss bar?


And while were at it... 2/0 aluminum service wiring is what, 150 amps? I cant recall ever seeing a Fedral Pacifc 150 main shutoff breaker. My guess is that it is likey undersized (100 or maybe 60 amp?).

Next time move the camera north a bit.


Originally Posted By: Lew Lewis
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Ray,


There are 150 amp FPE's that are split bus, without a main disconnect. The small 100 amp FPE usually has two rows of vertically installed breakers. I don't ever recall seeing a FPE breaker panel less than 100 amp.

I take off all covers unless it looks hazardous, for instance, water dripping out of the panel.


Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
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125 Amp FPE with 100 Amp Main (38KB)

Perhaps everyone should review the NACHI Standards of Practice paragraph 2.7 (note Joe points out "when readily accessible" and the SOP specifies in PP 2.7 II. C. The inspector is not required to: Remove panel covers or dead front covers if not readily accessible.)


NACHI SOP

2.7. Electrical

I. The inspector shall inspect:

A. The service line.
B. The meter box.
C. The main disconnect.
D. And determine the service amperage.
E. Panels, breakers and fuses.
F. The grounding.
G. The bonding.
H. A representative sampling of switches, receptacles, light fixtures, and ground circuit interrupters.
I. And report the presence of solid conductor aluminum branch circuit wiring if readily visible.
J. And report on any GFCI-tested receptacles in which power is not present, polarity is incorrect, the receptacle is not grounded, is not secured to the wall, the cover is not in place, the ground fault circuit interrupter devices are not properly installed or do not operate properly, or evidence of arcing or excessive heat is present.
K. The service entrance conductors and the condition of their sheathing.
L. The ground fault circuit interrupters with a GFCI tester.
M. And describe the amperage rating of the service.
N. And report the absence of smoke detectors.
O. Service entrance cables and report as in need of repair deficiencies in the integrity of the insulation, drip loop, or separation of conductors at weatherheads and clearances.

II. The inspector is not required to:

A. Insert any tool, probe or device into the main or sub-panels.
B. Operate electrical systems that are shut down.
C. Remove panel covers or dead front covers if not readily accessible.
D. Operate over current protection devices.
E. Operate non-accessible smoke detectors.
F. Measure or determine the amperage or voltage of the main service if not visibly labeled.
G. Inspect the alarm system and components.
H. Inspect the ancillary wiring.
I. Activate any electrical systems or branch circuits which are not energized.
J. Operate overload devices.
K. Inspect low voltage systems, electrical de-icing tapes, swimming pool wiring or any time-controlled devices.
L. Verify the continuity of the connected service ground.
M. Inspect private or emergency electrical supply sources, including but not limited to generators, windmills, photovoltaic solar collectors, or battery or electrical storage facility.
N. Inspect spark or lightning arrestors.
O. Conduct drop voltage calculations.
P. Determine the accuracy of breaker labeling.


--
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, Kentucky

www.b4uclose.com

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Erby:


You have settled the question. According to the NACHI SOP the HI is supposed to remove the panel cover when it is readily accessible!

![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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"NACHI SOP


2.7. Electrical

I. The inspector shall inspect:

A. The service line.
B. The meter box. "

How does an HI inspect a meter box?

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: evandeven
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Quote:
How does an HI inspect a meter box?


After I took the ethics test online, I e mailed Nick about that very question.
Here in Florida, you are not allowed to inspect or tamper with the electric meter.


--
Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com

Originally Posted By: Tom Turner
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Guys,


You do not inspect inside a meter box, just the box itself. On one of my inspections today the patio had settled, pulling the meter box with it, which caused the meter box to be pulled loose from the structure. This puts stress on the entry cables and allows water to enter the meter box. This can cause serious problems.

Tom


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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icon_surprised.gif


This is a visual inspection of the problem you described that should be reported!



You want more meter horrors, see the rest of the story here:

http://themeterguy.com/photogallery/index1.html


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



46 KB It was only about five feet off the ground over a concrete patio in a house with two kids about nine years old. Wonder what would’ve happened if they got curious before I asked the seller to call the electric utility right away to get it repaired.


Settlement has pulled the underground conduit apart. 81 KB This is still like this 1 1/2 years later. Even after I told the owner that the electric utility is usually responsible for fixing stuff like this when it's in front of the meter. House is just a few years old. It'll probably stay like this until it finally pulls loose.


--
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, Kentucky

www.b4uclose.com

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Great Photos and here is the installation practice that recognizes the service lateral issue.


To recognize ground movement where direct-buried conductors, raceways, or cables are subject to movement by settlement or frost, direct-buried conductors, raceways, or cables are required to be arranged to prevent damage to the enclosed conductors or to equipment connected to the raceways.

Methods to cover this include installing an ?S? loop in underground direct burial to raceway transitions, expansion fittings in raceway risers to fixed equipment, and, generally, the provision of flexible connections to equipment subject to settlement or frost heaves.


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: rray
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jtedesco wrote:
According to the NACHI SOP the HI is supposed to remove the panel cover when it is readily accessible!


However, there are conflicts in the SOP:

Quote
3. Limitations, Exceptions & Exclusions
3.1. Limitations:
. . .
3.2. Exclusions:
. . .
III. The inspectors are not required to:
. . .
B. Dismantle, open, or uncover any system or component.
C. Enter or access any area which may, in the opinion of the inspector, to be unsafe or risk personal safety.
. . .
F. Do anything which, in the inspector's opinion, is likely to be unsafe or dangerous to the inspector or others or damage property, such as, but not limited to. . .
Unquote

Seems like in paragraph III.B. that "any system or component" definitely could include an electric panel, no?

One arguably could consider Zinsco and FPE panels that have no clearance between breakers and inner edges of cover to be "unsafe or risk personal safety." Poor grammar in paragraph C noted.

And paragraph F just leaves everything wide open.

In my legal class, we were taught that the first thing listed in a legal document is always just the start and that everything after that modifies it. Since the exclusions are at the end of our SOP, they supersede, or modify, everything that went before.

With all that said, neither I nor my inspectors ever remove the inner cover from Zinsco or FPE panels. Business decision based on my own practical experience and advice from my counsel. Too many times removing the inner cover knocks the breakers loose, even though the breaker still says "on", at which point the current occupants have no electricity to their freezer for the weekend, which then means that I, Mr. Home Inspector, will be buying them a few hundred dollars--or more--of meat when they get back.

Old Sylvanias and Bulldog Pushmatics sometimes get the same treatment.

![icon_twisted.gif](upload://xjO326gspdTNE5QS3UTl0a0Rtvy.gif)


--
Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Russell:


You raise some interesting points and I agree. Maybe the best way would be to have no power into the panelboard, that is, ask the owner or other interested person to put the disconnecting means (Main Switch) in the off position?

This would be the safest way!


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Photo Courtesy: www.electrical-contractor.net


Here is the answer to the question asked, this label is specific and must be followed to be safe and avoid liability.

This could become a new legal issue!

How could this have been missed? I am sure that this type of warning can be found on other equipment. This was a FPE Panel.

![](upload://b38ZTn8OTsgWLmvoGIhpPgVZbLC.jpeg)


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: evandeven
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
Here is the answer to the question asked, this label is specific and must be followed to be safe and avoid liability.

This could become a new legal issue!

How could this have been missed? I am sure that this type of warning can be found on other equipment. This was a FPE Panel.


Looking at the picture, it says "working inside". I don't know if
"looking inside" is the same as "working inside".

If they are going to be viewed as the same, then according to our SoPs, we can't pull the covers off. It says in the SoPs that we are not required (bs phrase) to turn a breaker on that is off. Conversely, we are not supposed to be turning the breakers on or off either.


--
Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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what to do and not do with the electric system. We see people attempt to exceed the standards all of the time, which also changes peoples perception of what a home inspection is based on who is doing it. Maybe some exact standards for the electric system are in order? Also, maybe a whole lotta examples of situations where a panel cover should not be removed, etc.


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Blaine:


Good suggestions and we can ask the other members and interested persons for some examples and additional experiences.

Jeff's images of interior's are very scary and if we collect more from other posts on the board they could help to serve as examples.


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Tom Turner
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I feel that we are talking about two different things. In my area panel boxes are the devices that hold the breakers/fuses and branch power to the house. A meter base supplies power to the panel box and the cover of the meter base cannot be removed by anyone other than the local utility personal. I think this is true in all states.


Tom


Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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Yep…what he said!!!^



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