wind mit roof question

Local Inspection Issues Florida and SUNachi Inspectors
21

Yes, by design no accident–

To try an answer some of the previous questions and comments:

  1. If a Palm Beach contractor went to Broward or Dade between September 1, 1994 and Feb 28, 2002 regardless he had to perform the roofing in compliance with the standards of the 1994 SFBC because you can not reduce or take away from the minimum standards. If someone in another county during that or any time period wanted to roof a home using the SFBC standards or better they can, because again all code are based on minimum standards.

  2. As far a St. Johns goes, if you have documented proof ie: permits and appendix with NOA’s stamped by the county or building department which matches the permit and/or process number for the project the it meets the minimum requirements. If an underwriter decided to NOT accept it then they acted in BAD faith, I would consult an attorney. Like I’ve said before; the pendulum swings both ways–we hear of all the mishaps and so called fraud that went on before that in many cases it is true–but today if you look at it closely and neutrally you need to ask yourselves with this kind of behavior who’s calling the kettle black?

[FONT=Verdana]3. I wonder when are the tile manufactures going to file their class actions? I mean the OIR-B1-1802 form is written proof of the insurance industry discriminating and penalizing homeowners for having tile roofs. This is one industry that has taken a position to encourage and promote shingles and discourage and market against the tile industry, that’s seems like a trade interference issue. Also how about those individuals that own homes in planed communities which do not allow anything but tiles? Or the reality that there are other neighborhoods that are a little higher end and changing your roof covers to shingles will cause a reduction to not only that homes value but to the value of those around it; I believe that might be interpreted as financial damages. Some attorney at some point and/or the tile manufacturers will catch on, just like they did with this Citizens class action that’s going on now.
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Good Luck and much success to all,

Jose’ F. Uz, Ph.D., CRC, CPO, CHI, CHC, M-NFPA, NACHI Certified, IAC2 Certified, FHA INSP., Florida Licensed Home Inspector, Fellow of the ABI
President
Caribbean** Realty**** Support Services, Inc.**
Toll Free 866-261-2242
Serving 15 Florida Counties
Inspections, Surveys & Engineering Services

**“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent their government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” **
“I prefer dangerous liberty to peaceful servitude.”
Thomas Jefferson 1787

22

Like Miami Beach, Tile only for sfh

23

It looks like the OIR needs to modify the form to include:
ASTM C1492 - 03(2009) Standard Specification for **Concrete Roof Tile

It would appear that box three will have to be checked if there is a tile roof present.

Perhaps the word “or” should be substituted for the word “and”.
**

Or, TAS-100 should be added.

24

And certain areas of Coral Springs, Parkland, and Palm Beach.

25

This is a little something I give people that have a tile roof which meet one of the respective codes but not as Sec 2 (B) states “the requirements”.

Please note that although your tile roof meets all applicable building codes you will not qualify in section 2 for meeting the requirements as defined on the inspection form as (Dade NOA or FBC 2001 Product Approval listing demonstrating compliance with ASTM D 3161 (enhanced for 110 MPH) OR ASTM D 7158 (F, G or H), OR FBC TAS 100-95 and TAS 107-95, OR FMRC 4470 and/or 4471 (for metal roofs). This language has been placed on the form by the insurance industry and approved by the office of insurance regulation specifically and exclusively addressing shingles and metal roofs (only) as discontinuous non-rigid systems and therefore targeting tile roof covers from any and all consideration. This has been done despite the fact that many tile roofs are installed with foam adhesive application systems which are tested and certified for uplift by engineering firms prior to final inspection by building officials and many times exceeding the 110 MPH enhanced requirements as specified on the OIR-B1-1802 form.

The OIR-B1-1802 form does not allow us to give you the credit for your roof covering regardless of our professional engineering opinion. Therefore regrettably we are forced to mark “B” Does not meet the above minimum requirements. Please note that the designed language does not state that your roof does not meet the Florida building code but instead has been carefully worded to state that it Does not meet the above minimum requirements which are “demonstrating compliance with ASTM D 3161 (enhanced for 110 MPH) OR ASTM D 7158 (F, G or H), OR FBC TAS 100-95 and TAS 107-95, **OR FMRC 4470 and/or 4471” which is the insurance industries requirements. **

**If you have questions or comments with this issue you will need to take it up with your insurance carrier/company and the office of insurance regulations in Tallahassee, (your insurance agent and inspector have no control over this issue). Unfortunately the choices provided under the forms requirements are out of our control and we are merely made to follow the directions as stated. **

Later,

Jose

26

Jose,

Thanks, I think i’ll carry some copies of that with me if you do not mind.

27

Yes, but the question reads,
A. At a minimum meets the 2001 Florida Building Code or the 1994 South Florida Building Code and has a Miami-Dade NOA or

If it has been permitted (and final approval) within the dates of the of the specified codes and has a Miami-Dade NOA the “or” (see dictionary) breaks the sentence and the testing standards listed do not apply to tile, if the tile has a Miami-Dade NOA. There are 6 pgs of Miami-Dade NOA for tile in the HVHZ.
His problem is that the house is outside Dade and Broward, so it was permitted under a different code.

28

And then there is this:

29

The house in question has a shingle roof.

Regardless, if the owner can prove that the code was exceeded, then the insurance company should grant him the discount.

Interesting that they are overly concerned with a tile roof and don’t care about the fact that most of the nails used to re-nail the decking have missed the trusses in numerous re-roofs.

30

Hey, anybody considered that since the tile roofing is more expensive to replace that the insurance companies want more money to insure them and therefore aren’t willing to part with the discount? I’m not saying it’s right, just pointing out the motivation for this deliberate deception built into the form.

31

The submittal package to the bldg dept for the authority having jurisdiction (AHJ) will only require the min. It would be difficult to prove that some went to a higher standard by a visual field inspection. Maybe an A/E letter with their stamp or the contractor’s letter with their license attesting to the installation at a higher code standard.

32

They may have had that intention, but someone screwed up on the wording in the question. They would of required the word “and” instead of the word “or” after this

At a minimum meets the 2001 Florida Building Code or the 1994 South Florida Building Code and has a Miami-Dade NOA or

33

That’s a great response letter Jose. May we use it?
I think that all in all we have to live with this as until we have a group (Such as the Fl Insurance inspectors started thankfully by John and Michelle) to fight for a fair change to the system. I appreciate everyones help.

34

I have sent an e mail to OIR to see what they have to say.
Also, I asked them another question which pertains to the fact that they are asking home inspectors to make code verifications and determinations and acting as code enforcement officers, which is illegal.

I brought up the nail missing the truss issue because the form says that the roof must conform to the 94 or 01 code. If the nails missed the trusses, then it doesn’t conform to the code or the APA guidelines for deck nailing.

I am curious to see what they have to say about that.

35

[quote=“juz, post:3, topic:53667”]

The TAS’s shown reference discontinuous non-ridged roof materials. In other words Shingles. Tiles, built-up, tar & gravel even if done last week do not meet the requirements.

In regards to built-up or single-ply systems - why doesn’t the provision for FMRC apply? Its is specific for these types of roofing systems - FMRC 4471 is for metal roofs.

As noted below:

**FMR approval

**To be considered for FMR approval, roof assemblies must conform to one or more of the following standards:

FM 4470, “Approval Standard for Class 1 Roof Covers,” provides a basis for the evaluation of membrane-type (e.g., built-up, single-ply) roof systems. Specific criteria evaluated include fire, wind-uplift, hail, water-leakage, foot-traffic and corrosion resistances.

FM 4450, “Approval Standard for Class 1 Insulated Steel Roof Decks,” provides criteria for evaluating roof assemblies with steel roof decks. By this standard, a steel roof deck is qualified by FM 4451, “Approval Standard for Steel Roof Deck,” and the roof system is evaluated by FM 4470.

FM 4471, “Approval Standard for Class 1 Panel Roofs,” provides criteria for evaluating panel-type roof systems, including metal and plastic panel roof systems. Specific criteria evaluated include fire, wind-uplift, foot-traffic, hail and water-leakage resistances.

36

I bet you get NO definite answers to anything. At least I never have.:smiley:

37

I won’t trade on the argument, I for one believe that this is a wrong position taken up by the industry-but it is what it is. Mark it off as B. lets see what comes back.

Jose’ F. Uz, Ph.D., CRC, CPO, CHI, CHC, M-NFPA, NACHI Certified, IAC2 Certified, FHA INSP., Florida Licensed Home Inspector, Fellow of theABI
President
Caribbean** **[size=3]Realty Support Services, Inc.[/size]
Toll Free 866-261-2242
Serving 15 Florida Counties
Inspections, Surveys & Engineering Services

**“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent their government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” **
[FONT=Arial] “I prefer dangerous liberty to peaceful servitude.”
Thomas Jefferson 1787[/FONT]

38

Go ahead, it will save you some calls.

Jose’ F. Uz, Ph.D., CRC, CPO, CHI, CHC, M-NFPA, NACHI Certified, IAC2 Certified, FHA INSP., Florida Licensed Home Inspector, Fellow of theABI
President
Caribbean** **[size=3]Realty Support Services, Inc.[/size]
Toll Free 866-261-2242
Serving 15 Florida Counties
Inspections, Surveys & Engineering Services

**“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent their government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” **
[FONT=Arial] “I prefer dangerous liberty to peaceful servitude.”
Thomas Jefferson 1787[/FONT]

39

Actually whats funny is that they want to see the multiple missed nails (shiners) to prove spacing—even better; the more you miss the less you uplift load PSF’s are.

The good thing is that more and more I am seeing underwriters and even the adjusters in my classes, training and asking good questions–it should help.

Jose’ F. Uz, Ph.D., CRC, CPO, CHI, CHC, M-NFPA, NACHI Certified, IAC2 Certified, FHA INSP., Florida Licensed Home Inspector, Fellow of theABI
President
Caribbean** **[size=3]Realty Support Services, Inc.[/size]
Toll Free 866-261-2242
Serving 15 Florida Counties
Inspections, Surveys & Engineering Services

**“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent their government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” **
[FONT=Arial] “I prefer dangerous liberty to peaceful servitude.”
Thomas Jefferson 1787[/FONT]

40

That’s my assumption.

Jose’ F. Uz, Ph.D., CRC, CPO, CHI, CHC, M-NFPA, NACHI Certified, IAC2 Certified, FHA INSP., Florida Licensed Home Inspector, Fellow of theABI
President
Caribbean** **[size=3]Realty Support Services, Inc.[/size]
Toll Free 866-261-2242
Serving 15 Florida Counties
Inspections, Surveys & Engineering Services

**“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent their government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” **
[FONT=Arial] “I prefer dangerous liberty to peaceful servitude.”
Thomas Jefferson 1787[/FONT]