2 prongers

Originally Posted By: abishop
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When you guys see the famous old 2 prong outlets do you report anything? What do you say? IF this is something you guys recommend updating, why does it need to be? What are the reasons? Do you just test them with the 2 wire light up testers?


Thanks



Andy Bishop


Bishop Home Inspection, LLC.


bishophomeinspection@charter.net


269-686-6485

Originally Posted By: bkelly2
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The obsolete and ungrounded outlets should be replaced with modern and safer grounded outlets, which provide a pathway for the electrical current to travel harmlessly to ground.



“I used to be disgusted, Now I try to Be amused”-Elvis Costello

Originally Posted By: brian winkle
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If no grounding means exists at the receptacles, the best that can be done is new 2 prongs or GFCI’s. It’s either that or re wire the house. Most lamps, tvs, vaccuum cleaners etc dont use a ground but computers and heavy appliances do.


Incidentally, the old BX cable will provide a ground path but it is not legal to use it as such due to it’s reputation for high resistance.


Originally Posted By: rdawes
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Many vintage homes I inspect have a mixture of 2 wire outlets, 3 wire outlets with no ground connection, and possibly some newer or upgraded circuits that are 3 wire with a functioning ground wire. For the 2 wire, I note that these are older but typical of the age of the home and detail why 3 wire grounded are better. The ones that are more problematic are the 3 wire with open grounds as these my provide a false sense of security. I note these individually so the new owner can be aware which ones are that way. Lots of times these are the result of a broken 2 wire outlet being replace by a 3 wire because it was difficult to find a new 2 wire outlet in the hardware store. I also inform the buyer that they can install a GFCI on a 2 wire outlet for added shock protection.


Cheers,
Ron


Originally Posted By: whandley
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I note them and refer to the following cpsc internet thread


http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/524.html


Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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They key here is to NOTE it and explain in the report that they are ungrounded and as stated before approved for the time they were installed. In fact the NEC is not retroactive so they are STILL legal within the house.


What is not legal is to replace them with (3) hole grounded plugs just because they feel inconviences by using an adapter......

Unless you have a speciality in Electrical ( I happen to ) then do not go into loads of details on how to fix it.....just report it and note that if they have any concerns on it to consult a licensed electrician for a more detailed method of updating the circuit, adding the extra protection to the circuit ( ie: GFCI's ) and so on....if you tell them to PUT the GFCI's in because it is safer....in YOUR opinion and lets say a GFCI fails and someone is FAULTED to death......look who told them what they could do...

In the report NOTE it is 2 prong and is ungrounded. For information on how to make it grounded consult a licensed electrician.


Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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Brian…just to comment…I have actually SEEN the jacket of BX used as a grounding method to the point the BX was running through the joists and glowing a BRIGHT RED…never let anyone know BX can be used as a ground in any case…better to simply replace, or if to feel safer…GFCI protect it but I personally would put a AFCI on a curcuit where someone did that and knowing the arc which is causing the BX to even burn red would hopefully give me even more security to a bad situation…


I have seen BX be nasty.......hopefully others will know the difference between BX and AC cable......![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


Originally Posted By: brian winkle
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Ronald it is not just a false sense of security, it is a SHOCK HAZARD. Think about what would happen if the 3 wire recep is mounted to a metal box that for one reason or another becomes energized, not so unlikely a scenario with old, crispy insulation that has been moved. Now with the box energized, so is the third pin socket, along with the metal parts of anything plugged into it.


Originally Posted By: bkelly2
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bkelly2 wrote:
The obsolete and ungrounded outlets should be replaced with modern and safer grounded outlets, which provide a pathway for the electrical current to travel harmlessly to ground.


I stick with the above, I do not care when the were installed, nor do I care how or if they are fixed. I would not even mention which way to fix them.
As for things being safe for when they were built if you go down that road what do you say about asbestos, baluster spacing, smoke alarms, anti siphon valves, etc?

I reccomend that pepole may wish to upgrade to Arc Fault protection on all bedroom circuits.


--
"I used to be disgusted, Now I try to Be amused"-Elvis Costello

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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I think you have to look at the number of 2 wire plugs you use in a given room before you decide 2 prong plugs are automatically a hazard.


I am looking around my bedrooms, bathrooms, living room, dining room and kitchen.
There are probably 100 things I see that plug in (entertainment equipment kitchen, appliances, lamps, clocks, various wall warts, even my wife's laptop and all her palm/blackberry stuff). The ONLY things I see that use the ground pin are the microwave, refrigerator and this desktop computer.
Even most of my power tools are now double insulated, 2 prong plug things.
If anything the need for the 3d prong is decreasing with technology.
I would suggest adding a new 20a 3 wire for the fridge/microwave. Perhaps one to the computer room and one for any window shakers. The garage, basement and anything outside(where power tools are likely) should be GFCI anyway.

I would be more concerned with the condition of the existing 2 prongers.


Originally Posted By: rdawes
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bkelly2 wrote:
bkelly2 wrote:
The obsolete and ungrounded outlets should be replaced with modern and safer grounded outlets, which provide a pathway for the electrical current to travel harmlessly to ground.


I stick with the above, I do not care when the were installed, nor do I care how or if they are fixed. I would not even mention which way to fix them.
As for things being safe for when they were built if you go down that road what do you say about asbestos, baluster spacing, smoke alarms, anti siphon valves, etc?

I reccomend that pepole may wish to upgrade to Arc Fault protection on all bedroom circuits.


Your wording does not directly say that to provide that ground path that they will have to rewire the house. If they do not understand the implication, they may falsely assume that just changing the outlets are enough. That exposes you to liability. If they do grasp the implication, they may question why you are recommending a big buck improvement that is not fixing a defect.

I prefer to explain the situation and the ramifications with respect to safety and let the buyer decide.


Originally Posted By: brian winkle
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Greg, I never said two prong receptacles were a hazard. I said a three prong receptacle installed in a metal box with no grounding means is a hazard.


I totally agree with you about the number of household items that don’t use a grounding plug at all. I always tell people, move in, after a few weeks or so you will know where you need the grounding receptacles. Then just run new circuits to those locations.


Originally Posted By: bkelly2
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I think I understand what you are saying Ronald.


But I have never told anyone to rewire their house, or to replumb their house or re roof their house or re any thing their house. I have told people that I believe your roof is done and you should get a roofer out here to look at it.

I am now adding electrician to the narrative in question. The narrative I posted appears in red in my report under the heading Needing Service.


At the beginning of my report I tell people that all of the service recommendations I make should be performed by licensed specialists before the close of escrow. I go over that part of the report with them before we cover the findings part.

I am not positive that it is necessary to re wire an entire house to update to grounded outlets. It is out of my scope and my insurance coverage to tell people how to fix things.


--
"I used to be disgusted, Now I try to Be amused"-Elvis Costello

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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bkelly2 wrote:
The obsolete and ungrounded outlets should be replaced with modern and safer grounded outlets, which provide a pathway for the electrical current to travel harmlessly to ground.


bkelly:

Please expand on this statement, just exactly what do you mean? ![icon_question.gif](upload://t2zemjDOQRADd4xSC3xOot86t0m.gif)


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: bkelly2
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This is what I mean Mr Tedesco. Please do not copy my posts, please do not respond to my posts.



“I used to be disgusted, Now I try to Be amused”-Elvis Costello

Originally Posted By: wdecker
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In my area, almost all the wiring is in conduit. This makes the upgrade to 3 prongs a snap, since the conduit is the ground.



Will Decker


Decker Home Services


Skokie, IL 60076


wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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bkelly2 wrote:
This is what I mean Mr Tedesco. Please do not copy my posts, please do not respond to my posts.


Quoting is allowed! ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

Get over it! bkelly, one of the things I do is challenge people like you to think.

I know that's a real stretch for some folks.


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: wdecker
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Joe,


Please, try to understand and comply. You are not really very well liked around her just now. This is mainly due to your own, quite stupid, actions.

Please, try to understand what you did and why it would be best for you to lay low for at least a little while.

Thanks;


--
Will Decker
Decker Home Services
Skokie, IL 60076
wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Will have you done impedance testing on all of the EMT runs to be sure it is actually an effective grounding path?


One loose screw, lock nut or corroded connector can make this a hazard. When I see commercial installations (just about the only place you see EMT outside Chicago) they always specify a “hard ground” <conductor> pulled through the pipe.


If they EMT was properly installed it is going to be OK but all installers are not created equal and intervening activity can compromise the best installation. I see plenty of EMT with loose connectors, concentric KOs pulled out and separated sections in the system.


Originally Posted By: wdecker
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Greg;


What happens around here is that they regularly use the conduit. A test of ground, at the outlet would suffice, wouldn't it?

I re-wired my daughter's hose, in Chicago. It had conduit, but I ran a seperate green. The city inspector told me it was not necessary. I also tested continuit of the conduit.

Tested an outlet. Once with green connected and once without. Both tested as having a good ground.

All installers are not equal, but around here, most know to properly biond the conduit.


--
Will Decker
Decker Home Services
Skokie, IL 60076
wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com