Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
If you have followed my posts you can probably guess I think GFCIs are a great addition to electrical safety. To that end I try to promote the use of GFCIs to at least the minimum required by code.
One problem is that it is hard to keep up with the GFCI requirements.
I understand Jerry Peck has a nice chart of the requirements and what years they apply to. Maybe he will link it to this thread.:)
Here are the GFCI requirements for 2002 keep in mind they will change again for 2005 NEC.
Quote:
210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use
Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8).
Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(2) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G).
(3) Outdoors
Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426.
(4) Crawl spaces ? at or below grade level
(5) Unfinished basements ? for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like
Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8).
Exception No. 3: A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.
Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G).
(6) Kitchens ? where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces
(7) Wet bar sinks ? where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces and are located within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the wet bar sink.
(8) Boathouses
(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1), (2), and (3) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel:
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Rooftops
Exception to (2): Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied from a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426.
(3) Kitchens
Add to this list pool pumps that plug in are required to be GFCI protected.
Strangely enough hardwired pool pumps are not required to be GFCI protected.
I strongly urge you to recommend GFCI protection for hardwired pool pumps remembering it is only a recommendation and not a requirement.
Here are some links about GFCIs and the testing of them
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
bbadger wrote:
One problem is that it is hard to keep up with the GFCI requirements.
I understand Jerry Peck has a nice chart of the requirements and what years they apply to. Maybe he will link it to this thread.
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bob,
Arent pool motors, with twist lock receptacles, that are more than 20' from the pool edge, exempt from the GFCI rule? Just illustrating how you are right. GFCI rules are defnitely confusing. Remember to check pool lights, as underwater luminaires (lights) must also have GFCI protection...
Except, of course, in my Brother's pool...
-- Joe Farsetta
Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."
Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jfarsetta wrote:
Bob,
Arent pool motors, with twist lock receptacles, that are more than 20' from the pool edge, exempt from the GFCI rule?
I will have to check  but I knew I was on shaky ground talking about pools, I have not wired a pool in 20 years.
jfarsetta wrote:
Just illustrating how you are right. GFCI rules are definitely confusing.
Keep on doing so, I want the correct info to get out.
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jfarsetta wrote:
Bob,
Arent pool motors, with twist lock receptacles, that are more than 20' from the pool edge, exempt from the GFCI rule? Just illustrating how you are right. GFCI rules are defnitely confusing. Remember to check pool lights, as underwater luminaires (lights) must also have GFCI protection...
Except, of course, in my Brother's pool...
Joe F.,
I've gone back and skimmed through the pool section twice and can't find anything about that.
I suspect you are picking up the 20 feet from the GFCI receptacle outlets. NO receptacle outlets within 10 feet of a pool and all receptacle outlets within 20 feet of a pool must have GFCI protection, unless, of course, the pool is also outside - in which case ALL receptacle outlets must have GFCI protection because they are outside (i.e., the 20 feet only applies to indoor pools).
Permanently installed pools - GFCI protection not required anyway.
Storable pools - GFCI protection is required for all equipment.
680.32 Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters Required.
All electrical equipment, including power-supply cords, used with storable pools shall be protected by ground-fault circuit interrupters.
FPN: For flexible cord usage, see 400.4.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
680.22(A)(5) GFCI Protection. All 125-volt receptacles located within 6.0 m (20 ft) of the inside walls of a pool or fountain shall be protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Receptacles that supply pool pump motors and that are rated 15 or 20 amperes, 120 volt through 240 volts, single phase, shall be provided with GFCI protection.
handbook comentary
All single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere, 120 through 240 receptacles that supply swimming pool pump motors are required to have GFCI protection. While this requirement applied only to installations at other than dwellings in the 1999 Code, the 2002 Code has been revised to require GFCI protection of these receptacles for all swimming pool installations. It should be noted that this requirement applies to these receptacles regardless of their proximity to the swimming pool, and it applies only to cord-and-plug-connected pump motors.
Pretty unambibuous. No mention of "twist lock" or any other style that is excepted.
Cord and plug connected pumps shall be GFCI ... unless you put them on a 30a plug 
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Greg Fretwell wrote:
Pretty unambibuous. No mention of "twist lock" or any other style that is excepted.
Cord and plug connected pumps shall be GFCI ... unless you put them on a 30a plug 
Precisely what I was referring to "Arent pool motors, with twist lock receptacles, that are more than 20' from the pool edge, exempt from the GFCI rule?" The twist-lock exception - none that I could find.
Also, when is the last time you have seen a permanently installed pool (that what section this is in) where the pump is cord and plug connected?
Storable pools, yes, but they are covered in another section. ALL permanently installed pool I have seen are not cord and plug connected.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I have seen above ground pools with cord and plug but you are right about ingrounds. They are usually hard wired. The problem is, as soon as you decide there are none, you will see one
I think that may really be a northern thing where they “close” pools. My brother in law in Md takes his pump inside for the winter. He has unions on the pipes and a cord/plug. Knowing him that is probably how he drains the pool. Just unscrew the unions and get’r done!
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bob,
That is good Bob. Now if you want to better that, talk to us about scenarios that our inspectors will find that will require GFCI protection, not just pools. 
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
You guys know better than I what the language should be but I think any spot that currently requires GFCI should be noted if it is not present on an older home, no matter what the code was when it was built.
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Greg Fretwell wrote:
but I think any spot that currently requires GFCI should be noted if it is not present on an older home, no matter what the code was when it was built.
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Greg Fretwell wrote:
but I think any spot that currently requires GFCI should be noted if it is not present on an older home, no matter what the code was when it was built.
Bingo ... for an HI it doesn't matter when it was built. If it really is a hazard, it gets flagged.
This is my personal opinion, but missing GFCI protection in areas where it is recommended according to current model codes is a RED FLAG in my book. How much does a replacement receptacle cost as compared to the hazard?
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
