240 volt bath

Originally Posted By: jpope
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Okay, we’ve determined that a switch located just outside a shower/bath is okay so long as it’s not in a mobile home.


Does the same rule apply to outlets? How about 240 volt outlets?

![](upload://dPRKQsWtg9rjXdVPWwKO8x03YoX.jpeg)

This was installed by the homeowner for a window mounted A/C in the upstairs bathroom.


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Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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Quote:
NEC 406.8[2][c]
an outlet shall not be installed within a bathtub or shower space



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Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Jeff,


I would just make it real simple.

If it's not a GFCI, It must to be relocated or protected with a ground fault. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

All outlets would have to follow the "within six foot of water" theory.


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Originally Posted By: psabados
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A/C window unit mounted in the upstairs bathroom. That would mean an extension cord would have to run from the second floor, through the floor and bathroom ceiling to this wall outlet.


So not only do you have a shock hazard, but a fire hazard with the extension cord. Obviously not permitted, fire Marshall would have a cow and the insurance company would say are you nuts, no way are you getting insurance coverage.

What other conditions did you find upstairs?

Paul


Originally Posted By: jpope
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No extension cord, no GFCI protection. If you look closely, you can see the cord of the unit hanging down to the left, from the window above the sink.


I recommended removal without hesitation for two reasons - 240 volt and no GFCI. I just wanted to hear some other perspectives.

The air ducts for the upstairs had been disconnected in the crawl space (unbeknown to the owner) so they installed this secondary A/C. I'll post that pic tomorrow.


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Originally Posted By: tallen
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I agree with you Jeff.


You seem to have a knack for running into the strange and unusual icon_cool.gif icon_cool.gif



I have put the past behind me,


where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.


www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

Originally Posted By: Dave Nix
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Hi Guys,


I agree that it is a poor location but code does not prohibit this.
Quote:
All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles....



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Electrical Matters

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Jeff:


The last sentence here is what would lead me to the following comments:

1. Did that homeowner take out an electrical permit, and did he have the work inspected?

2. If so, was the permit signed off?


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Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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Not sure about the 240v thing as a reason for removal, but even if they switched it to a GFCI, no A/C unit should run off that type of outlet.



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Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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kmcmahon wrote:
Not sure about the 240v thing as a reason for removal, but even if they switched it to a GFCI, no A/C unit should run off that type of outlet.


Why?

It looks like a 20 amp 240 outlet with ground, just the thing for a large AC unit.

If you mean running an AC from a GFCI that is not required here, there is no reason you could not run an AC from a GFCI.


Must be a big bathroom to need that many BTU though. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


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Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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well, I would think that just like the reason you don’t run a freezer off a GFCI in a garage due to the load surge tripping the breakers from the compressor start-up, the same would apply to an A/C unit.



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Originally Posted By: jpope
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Quote:
1. Did that homeowner take out an electrical permit, and did he have the work inspected?

2. If so, was the permit signed off?

There were many additions to this $720,000 home that would require permits, however, I do not check permits unless specifically requested to do so. I did recommend checking for appropriate permits because of the additions but I did not specify this electrical application.

Quote:
If I was that inspector and discovered the 240 volt receptacle in its present location I believe that I would have not permitted it to be installed as shown.

I would hope not. This looked bad from the the beginning to me.

Quote:
You said that this receptacle was for an AC Unit, where was it -- above somewhere?

The A/C unit was directly above and just left of the receptacle (you can see the cord hanging down in the picture).

Quote:
He probably removed the existing receptacle, and turned the white wire (grounded conductor) into another phase to get the 240 volts.

When you removed the receptacle plate or panel cover, did you see that wire?

Now I am starting to really worry, what if the attic space included some stretch of another hot leg to that box feeding the receptacle under discussion?

I don't remove receptacle covers. Others may, but not me. If I removed ONE cover, I would be obligated (IMHO) to remove ALL covers. This application was run in exposed metal conduit on the exterior of the home, directly from the panel where the 240V breaker was marked "A/C."

Quote:
Personally, I would not have it and I would tell the owner that it should have never been installed!

I will leave that to you and Jerry P. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Quote:
PS: You can quote me too if you want!

I do, I have and I will


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Jeff Pope
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Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



tallen wrote:
You seem to have a knack for running into the strange and unusual ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif) ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)


Gotta love LA


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Jeff Pope
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Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Jeff:


Was there a regular receptacle that was GFCI protected on the other side of the basin?


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Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: jpope
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jtedesco wrote:
Jeff:

Was there a regular receptacle that was GFCI protected on the other side of the basin?


Yes Joe, there was an operational GFCI outlet to the left of the sink.


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Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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kmcmahon wrote:
well, I would think that just like the reason you don't run a freezer off a GFCI in a garage due to the load surge tripping the breakers from the compressor start-up, the same would apply to an A/C unit.


Kevin I am not trying to bust your chops here I just think there a lot of misconceptions about GFCIs.

GFCIs do not trip from a load surge, the only thing that can trip a GFCI is current leakage to grounded objects.

Large pool pumps run on them and on construction sites much larger surge loads are run by them all day.

Currently the NEC requires all 120 volt 20 amp commercial kitchen outlets to be GFCI protected, this includes ones feeding refrigerators and freezers.

All electric equipment leaks current to ground, the best way around nuisance tripping is to provide GFCI receptacles so each load can have up to 5 ma leakage.

A sure way to trouble is to use GFCI breakers to feed many loads then the leakage current of each load adds up and you are much more likely to have nuisance tripping.

As GFCIs become even more prevalent IMO you will see allowable leakage levels on equipment be reduced.


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ECN Discussion Forums
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Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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Bob Badger wrote:

Kevin I am not trying to bust your chops here I just think there a lot of misconceptions about GFCIs.


Yes you are, but that's ok...that's why I'm here, to learn...I'm using things read in books, and finding differing opinions on just about any subject.
I am still trying to figure why the descrepancies between written text and common knowledge.
I myself have lost more than one freezer full of meat on account of a tripping gfci on a new freezer in the garage. It's happened to a few friends.
Anyways, I'm hear to learn. Just have to figure out what is BS and what is fact.


Kevin


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Originally Posted By: dedwards
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The reason I have always heard (and repeated) for not putting a freezer on a GFCI protected circuit is not because the freezer compressor may cause it to trip but rather that IF the GFCI trips because of any other reason your freezer has indeed been shut off without your knowledge. BTW it always happens when you are out of town or overnight same as when an air conditioner gives up the ghost…always happens on a long 3 day weekend (like Labor Day) and you can’t get anyone to come out…that’s another whole story…


Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Well than I would say you have an issue with your freezer not your GFCI. icon_smile.gif


I actually know of an electrical inspector in Salt Lake City UT that was getting sued by a restaurant because he enforced the code and required GFCIs in the kitchen.

Well the GFCI tripped and they lost some food, last he knew the suit was being dropped.

There is nothing in a GFCI that can sense a surge, the GFCI can only verify that all current "leaving" it, is "returning" thats it.

Going back to the job sites, a typical chop saw has a start up load greatly above (maybe 4 to 8 times) any house hold refrigerators or freezers.

I do not see these tripping GFCIs even with frequent cycling.

My sump pump has been on a GFCI for a couple of years now and works fine.

Bob


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ECN Discussion Forums
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Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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Quote:
CAUTION: You may find large appliances such as refrigerators, freezers, or washers plugged into GFCI circuits when they shouldn't be. Freezers and refrigerators in the garage plugged into GFCI outlets are a special problem. After the HI trips that GFCI, the freezer will have to restart and the motor surge can trip the GFCI again after the inspection. If you come across this situation, leave a note for the owners informing them to check the GFCI hasn't tripped after the inspection.

This was basically a warning agains liability for paying for spoiled food after an inspection, but it is basically saying that plugging a Fridge or Freezer in a GFCI is not a good idea because of the surge created that can trip the outlet.


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