4 point florida citizens cloth wiring

Ok so here is the final answer to this question. I have done so many inspections in the Tampa Bay Area in the past year and came across this type of wiring question very often.

4 Point is important in Florida because that’s the inspection form your insurance of choice looks at. I have seen wiring dating back to the late 1800’s and today. I am not an electrician and I have unlimited respect to ones that break it down to a science backed up with experience and I know a few. I agree that the Citizens 4 Point form is a mess but hey what government form isn’t ? It always has to have 2 to 100 different meanings and that’s why it’s government. When you can’t figure things out you just protect yourself by playing with words…riiiiiigh?

After numerous consultations with experienced electricians, insurance agents, underwriters the answer is the wire itself is covered in pvc rubber, and is actually “cloth jacketed wire”. In the truest sense of the word it is technically cloth covered, but the hazard of the older wiring is that the older rubber became brittle, whereas this wiring has more covering around it, which, to date, GENERALLY has not shown the degradation issues as with its predecessor.

So the answer is NO it is not cloth wiring that the form asks for. Now, here is the flip side. If this same wiring is not grounded in the panel and at the receptacle, switch or light or if it is damaged by rodents, deterioration, unstable voltage well then it’s an issue. A licensed electrician with a good standing reputation in business, will be able to determine this really easily. My good friend who is an insurance agent in Florida has shared a screenshot of the Citizens explanation of “Cloth” wiring that I attached here for everybody to see. Why should it be a secret, to make more money for the insurance companies and let them monopolize a market? If you need us to check for something you want to write the rules for then have your underwrites educate the ones checking for it. That’s why I say ASK, LEARN, SHARE it’s the only way.

To conclude, being a certified, state licensed home inspector is not just passing the tests and getting a license guarded by an insurance policy. It is about experience, not being afraid to ask around, building your network and most importantly SHARING YOUR KNOWLEDGE with others. Not everybody can pass for this career and the ones that are not willing to learn, ask and share will just end up with unsatisfied customers and lawsuits.

WHAT YOU MAY THINK IS CITIZENS CLOTH WIRING:

WHAT CITIZENS DEFINES AS CLOTH WIRING EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE AN ACTIVE KNOB AND TUBE OPTION:

Great info, thanks for sharing.

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That is cloth covered wiring.

The only time you have to use that silly Citizens form is when the client is using Citizens for there insurance.
I use the Tower Hill form. Everyone else will except it with the exception of Citizens.
Personally Citizens can shove that form where the sun don’t shine.
Attached is the Tower Hill form. So much more easier.
TowerHill-4Point Inspection.pdf (169.5 KB)

So @amicic ton understand correctly according to that screenshot you posted from citizen, The only “cloth wiring” they really care about is if it’s associated with knob and tube ?

In the past 6 months 95% of my clients ends up with Citizens as no other insurance company is willing to take a new policy and if they do we are giving 3-6K quotes that lots of clients do not want to purchase.

@ymartin Knob and tube and other “cloth insulated wire” cables.

@amicic So everything that’s cloth jacketed gets marked as “cloth”? For example that picture that you posted, would that get marked as “cloth” even though the individual conductors are thermoplastic?

@ymartin What I have showed as an example in their terminology is not cloth wiring as long as it has thermoplastic insulation and ground wire. Now like I’ve mentioned above if it is not grounded that would be a separate issue. If you’re still not sure be careful and refer an electrician and learn more by talking to licensed electricians on the subject.

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That makes sense, and that’s what I have understood as well. I have talked to many electricians about it, and most have said the same, the ones with the rubber insulation are the ones that have the most issues since the rubber gets brittle and damaged as you stated. Therefor that one is the one I usually call out as “cloth”.

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Why ? Because they are in the flood zone?
Or in old trailers?

Confusing isn’t it? These dopey insurance companies should hire someone with electrical expertise to write their inspection requirements. How hard would it be to ask for the presence of rubber insulated conductors and end the confusion.

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Yes, and for years I used a generic 4 point form, but lately too many people are calling/emailing (after the fact) that they need the Citizens form instead now, because XYZ insurance wouldn’t take them, and they have to have the correct form for Citizens.