60A Panels

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1

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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How many of you guys/gals will flag a panel, just because it’s only 60A?


(Yes, 3-wire 60A ... and for a small house without any heavy heating or cooling load I wouldn't red flag that for an upgrade unless it was overloaded, but would list that as a "concern" due to expansion limitations)

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

2

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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I see 60 amp service all the time in one particular condo complex. I let them know of my concerns, but if service and panel are in good shape, it’s typically not a defect in my eyes.


Rob, Is it true that in NYC now, a 60 amp service is an automatic mandatory upgrade to 100 amps, as per AHJ and Con Ed?

--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

3

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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RC wouldn’t other issues determine if this gets flagged?


All gas heating (water, space, dryer, stove) colder climate area (no AC).

Take away electric heating and cooling loads and 60 amps at 240 should power almost any home with no problem.

It would take a lot of lamps and TVs to tap out the service.

This is just a question, no code references, just my curiosity. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

Bob

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

4

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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I do.


Because at some time it will probably need to be upgraded.

Not saying it is unsafe.

Mike P.

5

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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I also let my cleints know that in this area 60A service will make it next to impossible to get insurance

–
.



Paul Hinsperger
Hinsperger Inspection Services
Chairman - NACHI Awards Committee
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6

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Bob … Joe and I tend to also agree that a 60A panel is not a flag by itself, especially if there are gas appliances in the house.


For those that don't know where Bob and I are going with this, let me give ya an example:

A 60A 3-wire 120V/240V service would have a capacity of about 14,400 VA [60A x 240V]. With the requirements for existing homes, that would need to handle 100% of the first 8,000 VA and 40% of anything over that (NEC 220.31).

If ya look at say a 1,500 sf home, the basic lighting/receptacle and appliance load would be 9,000 VA [3 VA/sf, one 1,500 VA laundry circuit, and two 1,500 VA kitchen circuits ? which includes the load from a typical refrigerator], which leaves about 6,000 VA of feeder capacity.

But even if ya don?t have gas appliances, it's not an automatic flag. If ya add a small range at say 8,000 VA and a dishwasher at say 1,500 VA it still leaves about 2,200 VA in feeder capacity [14,400 VA - 8,000 VA - 40% x 10,500 VA] for say some nominal room AC load, oil fired heat plant motor, or maybe a box freezer ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

But after that you are really at capacity for the service with no room for any other modern appliances or expansion. And forget about central AC for that house (the 40% demand factor is not applied to major heating/cooling loads). So, that situation would be something to point out ... even though it may not be overloaded ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

7

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Note that the above is just an example, and an HI rarely does those calculations as part of a home inspection … even though I recommend to students that they do it on the first dozen or so houses in their spare time just to get a “feel” for how things add up (but never say anything about that in a report) ? icon_idea.gif


Also note that for a typical home you can take Watts = VA = Volts x Amps, even though it's not exact. All of the information can be obtained from the floor area of finished spaces (not total floor area), and the equipment/appliance nameplate information which ya should be noting anyway ...

And I think as long as a panel is not clearly overloaded the possible issue of insurance on a 60A feeder really relates to fuses, but it's not a blanket position ... just another possible "concern" (discussed in another topic) ...

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

8

Originally Posted By: jremas
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i go to flea markets an buy old ones and install them on some homes when the people want some nostalgia. Taking out the 200amp SqD and replacing it with the GE60amp fuse box really takes the homeowners back in time. Not to mention they have to sell most of their appliances.


Unless overloaded or for a 203k, I don't flag them but do recommend an upgrade.

--


Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598

9

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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How about one of these Jeff (borrowed from another post):


![](upload://cJsUh7ocrGHbydTZjlQY3aqLNbr.jpeg)

Dont know if that enclosure would be "listed", but it looks pretty cool ... ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

10

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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If you look at the pic that Robert re-posted you will note at the time this was installed, they knew that electricity should be not left to anyone.


Robert. What type of PPE should I use to insert the key? ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

Mike P.

11

Originally Posted By: dbowers
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In theory I agree with part of the above comments on a 60 amp service being useable on a SMALL house with gas appliances.


In actuality, I have to consider several other factors: (a) if its going to go VA or FHA in my area it will need to be a minimum of 100 amps; (b) the majority of the insurance companys in my area will require 100 amps; (c) many lenders and/or appraisers in my area are starting to require an upgrade to 100 amps; (d) most of the time the folks in the house are like the service OLDER - the buyers are YOUNG - they're going to have TV's, electric hair dryers, computers, stereos, they want to dump the old gas range & dryer and get NEW ELECTRIC ones; they want to add central A/C and a microwave, and the old 60 amp service doesn't have the needed circuits or often the size to do this.

Finally, I seldom see an old 60 amp service that doesn't have double-tapped circuits, over sized fuses, top loaded lugs, etc.

Bottom Line, at least 75% of the time we would end up recommending a larger service for our CLIENTS than the 60 amps. The limited times we don't recommend it as part of the report - we end up suggesting they'll probably want to UPGRADE in the future.

Dan Bowers (Kansas City)

12

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Bob,


I don't flag them for being 60 amp panels, I flag them for being poorly installed or overloaded.

Mostly I see them in condos and older homes where the need for electric in low because of all gas appliances. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with them simply because they are 60 amp services.

Joe Myers

13

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Thanks guys, like I said I was just curious no code references to throw at this. icon_biggrin.gif


dbowers wrote:
Finally, I seldom see an old 60 amp service that doesn't have double-tapped circuits, over sized fuses, top loaded lugs, etc.


That is an excellent point, that is very true.

Very rare indeed to find a untouched 60 amp panel, almost a certainty that there will be some double tapped connections.

As far as loading I am with roconnor's post, if there are no electric heating loads 60 amps at 240 will be fine from a capacity standpoint for many homes.

Anyone know how many TVs, PCs, Lamps, etc that will run, more than you need to worry about.

Add a electric range and this changes rapidly.

My home is not large but I did take amp readings in the sumer with 4 window ACs (1-12,000, 3-5000 btu), electric dryer, washing machine, TVs and PC running.

Totaled out to 45 amps, this would be within the ability of a 60 amp service, I do have 100 amp service.

I do agree it would be worth noting in the report no matter what the present load is.

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum
14

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Bob Badger wrote:
... no code references to throw at this. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

NEC 220.21 (yea, I know), and toss in NEC 80.9.C just because ... ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

Keep in mind that I say that that type of panel may not be an issue just because it is only 60A. However, as others noted some insurance companies may have an issue with that (fuses and limited capacity). So that should be pointed out, and it's probably a good idea to know how insurance companies treat those type of panels in your area ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
15

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Mike Parks wrote:
Robert. What type of PPE should I use to insert the key? ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

I think 600V electricians gloves, OSHA approved safety glasses, and insulated boots as a MINIMUM ... ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
16

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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roconnor wrote:
I think 600V electricians gloves, OSHA approved safety glasses, and insulated boots as a MINIMUM ... ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)


You can use one of my pairs. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)



--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum
17

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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I have a pair like the ones shown on the right … icon_wink.gif


It gives me a "warm and fuzzy" feeling if I am wearing them near electricity, so I like to call them my "Teddy Bear Gloves" ...

Very inexpensive Life Insurance.

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

18

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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roconnor wrote:
I have a pair like the ones shown on the right ...


For the fault current and voltages available at most dwelling units the smaller pair on the right with a long sleeve cotton shirt and UV safety glasses will go along way to protecting you from burns and shocks.

The larger glove on the left is overkill in a dwelling unit and is hard to work with.

Burns from an electrical flash can be very damaging, if anyone welds they know the heat they feel from that and generally welding is done between 70-150 amps about 50 volts.

Cause a fault in the service conductors inside a panel and you can expect fault currents of greater than 4000 amps @ 120 or 240 volts, some times depending on the utility's distribution methods, the available fault current will be far above that.

One of our guys was severely burned when a metal snake got loose in live 480 volt gear.

He is OK now but spent many days in burn ward and needed skin grafts to his arms from his legs.

I can tell you that he will not let that happen again he has borrowed my flash coat and other gear when needed.

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum