A different Zinsco

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21

Originally Posted By: Randy Flockton
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Where are all the neutrals? 2 circuits may share a neutral as long as the circuits are on different phases… 10 - 120V circuits, 2 phases, minimum 5 neutrals required icon_wink.gif Only thing is… On these panels the breakers has whats called “selective phasing”… which means the breakers you see do not necessarily alternate phases as you go down the panel… The breaker contact must be switched to connect to the desired phase… Best way for a HI to tell this is with a wiggy or voltmeter… 1 neutral shared by 2 hots on 2 separate breakers… If you can see through the typical rats nest you may come across to where the conductors enter the panel… test voltage across the 2 breakers in question… 240V means the phasing is correct, 0V (same phase, same potential) means improper phasing & the neutral could be overloaded…


Here are photos of the contact of the pictured breakers in both phase positions





Just FYI

-Randy

--
"Prices subject to change with customers additude"

22

Originally Posted By: jpope
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bhendry wrote:
Isn't the neutral connection at the bottom burned?

Not burned, just old.

![](upload://oYHKIjU9Kfq2CP1Qd3uXKDq77CY.jpeg)

--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
23

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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I’m with Jeff on this one.


I don't care who pays for the electrician, OR what the electrician says.

I'm not paying for it, AND I'm not changing my "it needs to be replaced' position either. My report and recommendation to replace the Zinsco panel (or FPE panel) stands. Whether my client follows my advice (that's what they paid for) or not is up to them. I did a one year warranty inspection and gave my client the report last week, finished his brother-in-laws house today (two houses down the street), he opens the envelope I put his report in (I put it in a large manila envelope and placed it by his front door because no one was home) and says "I haven't had a chance to look at the report yet, but I need to open it to get the invoice out" (I told him where the invoice was on a note when I dropped the report off). He writes me a $2,250.00 check and says "I'll try to look at this within the next couple of weeks (his year is not up until mid-July). I like those types of clients, write the check and never look at the report???? Go figure.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

24

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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–
Robert O’Connor, PE


Eagle Engineering ?


Eagle Eye Inspections ?


NACHI Education Committee


I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
25

Originally Posted By: rray
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I also have some personal experience with Zinsco panels. Seems I am prone to purchasing houses that have them.


On Friday morning, December 27, 2002, I was working in my home office. At 4:30 I had about a 10-second brownout. Turned on the television to see if anything interesting had happened to transformers in the neighborhood. At 5:30, another 10-second brownout. Stupid me waited until another 10-second brownout at 6:30 before deciding to look at the electric panel. Yep, all scorched and burned. Since it had stopped, stupid me left everything alone and went back to work since the electricians were not awake yet. At 7:25 I went out to look at the electric panel. At about 7:30, the most beautiful arcing in that panel that you've ever seen in your life. At that point, I shut it down.

Called electrician. Yes, they could get out today, but it would be late. $85 service charge. Electrician comes at 5:15 p.m. Now it's overtime weekend rates. Panel needed to be replaced, and this electrician stated that they automatically recommend replacing Zinsco panels whenever they find them, no questions asked.

Quoted me $435 for a 100-amp panel, and it would arrive in about two weeks. Huh? Two weeks? I don't think so. So I called around. The best anyone could do was two weeks, unless I was willing to pay triple time holiday rates, which I was. Panel was installed on New Year's Eve day at a cost of $2,700.

I went ahead and ordered panels to replace Zinscos at two other houses but told the electricians to take however much time they needed. Took 'em two weeks.

Even then, though, I don't automatically recommend that Zinsco and FPE panels be replaced. That's the electrician's job. If the electrician says it's okay, all I ask of my Clients is to get their statement in writing, on their company's stationery, signed and dated, and with a copy of the electrician's E&O insurance certificate attached. That usually gets my Client's attention without me playing electrician.

--
Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.

26

Originally Posted By: Scott Wilson
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Unfortunately we electricians have no way of checking the internal conditions of the breakers. To put our “John Henry” on something like this as a safe installation would not be prudent, and I think it would be a disservice to the customer.


Zinsco circuit breakers are not only problematic because of the bus stabs (Good pics, guys), but because they often don't trip at their rating, and sometimes don't trip at all. I've also found many that have burned completely from the inside out and not tripped.(Including quite a few 100 amp mains).

27

Originally Posted By: rray
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Speaking of 100-amp mains, do the same types of problems apply to commercial propety Zinsco panels? This condo complex I was at the other day had 400-amp Zinsco outside, but the panel in the condo had been upgraded recently due to total renovation of the condo.


What about Zinsco and FPE disconnects for the cooling condenser?

Is it the company or just some of the products made by the company.

--
Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.

28

Originally Posted By: Gino Conner
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Randy Flockton wrote:
Where are all the neutrals? 2 circuits may share a neutral as long as the circuits are on different phases....


Hey Randy, isn't it a little unusual though to see four multi-wire circuits in a dwelling unit ![icon_question.gif](upload://t2zemjDOQRADd4xSC3xOot86t0m.gif)

That's forty percent of the circuits in that example.
29

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Randy


"2 circuits may share a neutral as long as the circuits are on different phases...."

Not true. They may be on the same phase. Just different 'legs'.

Most residential homes have only one phase.

Mike P.

30

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Mike,


What I think was being referenced was that the ungrounded conductors are phase conductors, and there are two of them, thus there are two phase conductors, Phase Conductor A and Phase Conductor B, both on the same phase, just 240 volts apart.

Thus, one ungrounded conductor of the multi-wire circuit is on Phase A and the other is on Phase B, both being the same phase, with there being 240 volts between the ungrounded phase conductors, but with no 240 volts loads, only 120 volt loads.

Trying to say that both ungrounded conductors cannot be on Phase A or Phase B, as there would not be any voltage difference between them, thus the neutral would not be a neutral, but a grounded conductor carrying both load currents (instead of carrying just the unbalanced current as in the true multi-wire setup). In this case, the neutral (er, grounded conductor) would likely burn up and become a fusible link from carrying twice the current it was intended to carry.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

31

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Jerry


Most homes are single phase.

Are we taking past one another?

Mike P.

32

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Are we talking past each other? Yes.


You have a black conductor (Phase A) and a red conductor (Phase B), both on the same phase.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

33

Originally Posted By: tallen
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That must be why breakers are numbered thus in a single phase instalation.


1,2


3,4


5,6


Etc.


odd is "A"
even is "B"

even though it is single phase. Or I could be wrong (again)
Three phase would than be.
A
B
C
A
B
C

--
I have put the past behind me,
where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.

www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

34

Originally Posted By: Randy Flockton
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Geez! Here we go!


Gino: I never brought up 3 phase… single phase is 2 ungrounded phase conductors between a “single phase” of the originating transformer windings… Three phase you have 3 conductors, therefore you have potential of all 3 windings…


Now going back a bit, The photo was of a 120/240V Zinsco panel… The panel was fed with 240V via TWO ungrounded phases… If these were not separate phases, there would be no 240V, there would be 0V because they would be at the same potential… Therefore, as they are out of sync with one another we get into the 60HZ thing… AC current is alternating 60 times a second… As the current is alternating between phases at this rate, the pulese are out of sync, therefore, when 2 ungrounded phases feed a 120V load, they can share a neutral (grounded phase) because of the fact that A phase does not ‘pulse’ at the same time as B phase… (once again, they’re out of sync)


Scott Wilson knows what Im talking about, as he is an electrician & has the training to understand these things…


You guys don’t believe me, ask Joe Tedesco icon_biggrin.gif



Mike Parks, If that panel was being fed from one phase as you say, there would be no 240V at this panel... I made the assumption that the wiring bringing power to this panel was correct as Jeff mentioned nothing of it not being

Mike Parks wrote:
Quote:
Most residential homes have only one phase.


I can read this 2 different ways... You mean single phase, which is true, or you're referring to the amount of ungrounded power conductors feeding a home, which is not true.... Remember.. single phase doesnt mean one ungrounded phase conductor... it means a single phase of the transformer windings... 1 wire from each end of the "phase winding" comes down to your home, along with a wire which is "center tapped" to that winding... This centertap is typically "grounded" to earth potential by the power company.. Thus why it's called the "grounded phase".. when you put a meter across the 2 ungrounded phases, you are reading across the entire lenght of the "phase winding" your home power is being supplied from you get 240V... when you read from one ungrounded phase (attached to an end of a phase winding) to your commonly called neutral (attached to the center of the phase winding) you get 12ov.. PERFECT EXAMPLE!
You have 3 wires coming to your house... You can come off either ungrounded phase to neutral & get 120V... As your panel is (should) be balanced out so that these loads are close to equal on both ungrounded phases .. Therefore the "neutral" from the power company between your house & the pole is handling 120V loads derived from both phase conductors to the center tapped grounded phase...

Jerry's on the right track..

Quote:
You have a black conductor (Phase A) and a red conductor (Phase B), both on the same phase.


These are both "derived" from the same phase winding at the Poco xfmr.. but they are still "different phases" If this were not the case, the poco's "neutral" line would need to be twice the size to prevent overload!

Todd Allen,
You are correct ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

If you guys want a better understanding of "how" the power feeding your home works, I'm sure Joe T would have plenty of resources regarding single phase & 3 phase transformer schematics, & knowing Joe's charisma at teaching, he might be able to explain all this a little better than I did... Joe? ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

WHEW!, I need a beer!

-Randy

--
"Prices subject to change with customers additude"
35

Originally Posted By: Gino Conner
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Drink one or two for me too brother. Better yet, maybe we should


see Russell for one of those mega-margaritas, or what ever that is


he is holding in his picture! icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif


I still think there is something else up with that Zinsco panel. There
can't be that many multi-wire circuits in there for a dwelling unit.
They have some other bogus neutral paths I think.

36

Originally Posted By: rray
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Don’t worry, guys, I drank your margaritas for you. I’m that nice. I’m always trying to help out where I can. icon_lol.gif

–
Home inspections. . . .


One home at a time.


37

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Randy


Yes one phase only. 180 degrees difference.

That is why if you have a 'split' feed and both are on the same leg, one of the breakers will trip.

Mike P.

38

Originally Posted By: rray
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Home Depot carries Zinsco circuit breakers. Go to www.homedepot.com and do a search on Zinsco.


I noticed them the other day when I was in the electrical section of our local store here, and they were priced no differently from the other manufacturer's breakers. However, they appeared to be made by a company called Thomas & Betts, I believe it was. Since then I have had to alter my report language a little since Zinsco breakers are available and are not outrageously priced.

--
Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.

39

Originally Posted By: Randy Flockton
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Hmmm… Zinsco (or the T&B version) are priced a little higher than the average breaker over here in CA… Here’s some pricing just off the home depot website FYI between Siemens & Zinsco


Siemens

Zinsco

These Siemens prices are a bit higher than I usually get at my supply house also!

-Randy

Zinsco 100A 2P Main... $95.88ea Siemens 100A 2P Main... $31.89
Zinsco 20A 1P breaker $18.99ea Siemens 20A 1P breaker $3.56

Priced at 11:50AM 6/16/04

--
"Prices subject to change with customers additude"

40

Originally Posted By: rray
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Is this a case of “You get what you pay for?” That would mean that Zinsco breakers are very good.


The price in my local store was much lower for the 100A Zinsco, which is what I was looking at, at $49.99. Still higher than the Siemens, though.

--
Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.