Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Peter Foxe Smothers wrote:
What did you advise you client about the panel?
Foxe Smothers
I have a standard comment whenever I come across Zinsco and/or FPE panels and it reads as follows;
"Zinsco brand panels are considered problematic by industry professionals. JPI recommends a complete evaluation of the electrical system by a state licensed electrical contractor in order to determine its safety, performance and integrity."
There are usually other problems that I can write up along with this statement, but not in this case.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: evandeven This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
Zinsco brand panels are considered problematic by industry professionals. JPI recommends a complete evaluation of the electrical system by a state licensed electrical contractor in order to determine its safety, performance and integrity."
There are usually other problems that I can write up along with this statement, but not in this case.
So who pays for the electrical contractor to come out?
If it were my home, it wouldn't be me! 
-- Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com
Originally Posted By: gbeaumont This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Oh no,
Jeff posts on zinsco's and Eric's right behind, everybody run    
Now lets have a clean fight guys, no biting, kicking or gouging  
Originally Posted By: evandeven This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Well…
If an electrician comes out and says “there is nothing wrong with this” someone spent money for, as some inspectors would put it, “peace of mind”.
Now, after your client spent $150.00 for the electrician to come out and he found nothing wrong, do you think your client is going to be willing to spend another $300.00 to call out a structural engineer because of a small step crack you found?
What about other items that you recommended a professional come out and "look at"?
At some point, at least if it were me, I would wonder why I hired you in the first place if I have to call everyone else out here.
I don't mean you specifically, Jeff, I mean other inspectors who recommend further evaluation for everything in the whole house.
In most instances, at least down here and now, the transactions are "as is". Now, I know we are not supposed to be concerned about that aspect of things, but, if we are really looking out for the best interest of our clients, how many extra fees are we going to pass on to them?
I am not even sure if the Zinsco panel pictured is the one with an alleged problem. It was my understanding that the skinnier breakers were the ones with supposed problems. I may be wrong.
Quote:
Oh no,
Jeff posts on zinsco's and Eric's right behind, everybody run
Now lets have a clean fight guys, no biting, kicking or gouging
Sorry couldn't resist
No fight Gerry! 
Several electricians have stated that there wasn't enough evidence yet to replace these panels because they say Zinsco on them.
And I am well aware that you just recommend someone look at it, but to a Buyer, that means replace it.
-- Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com
Originally Posted By: gbeaumont This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Eric wrote:
In most instances, at least down here and now, the transactions are "as is".
I think that there is the rub, I know that Both Jeff in Ca and myself in New England feel under much more pressure from issues of liability.
Having said all that most of the "beauties" that Jeff posts I would not hessitate to call in an electrician, this last picture is a tough call as there appears to be nothing wrong with it (I had to call Jeff to ask him what I'd missed, as he never posts "good" ones  ) but with the amount of this that he sees for him it's a good call, I think if I saw the stuff he generally sees I would get a little gun shy of these panels and breakers.
The issue with this panel is that unlike others that he has found recently, you cannot see the sides of the breakers to check whether there is in fact any scorching or signs of arcing, if I were buying this place I would concider the electricians fee a small price for peace of mind.
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
I don't mean you specifically, Jeff, I mean other inspectors who recommend further evaluation for everything in the whole house.
Don't worry Eric, I don't usually take posts personally even if that was their intent  .
Quote:
In most instances, at least down here and now, the transactions are "as is".
This is true here also.
Quote:
. . . if we are really looking out for the best interest of our clients, how many extra fees are we going to pass on to them?
I guess this is where personal experience comes into play. My personal experience with Zinsco panels tells me that they are highly susceptible to problems.
I have seen a wide variety of Zinsco panels in my short time as an inspector. About 2% of them have had no notable defects. I have done quite a bit of research on their products and have come to the conclusion that Zinsco products are inferior.
Once I've been around as long as Jerry P.,  I may begin to insist that these need to be replaced, but at this point, I am quite comfortable recommending (even strongly recommending) further evaluation at the very least.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Eric,
While I can certainly agree with the jest of what you are saying, I don't agree to call in the professional when it becomes necessary.
My logic behind it is a simple one. As a home inspector my knowledge is somewhat limited in just about every aspect of the home. The professional should be able to tell me, more than I can tell him, correct?
In the case of electrical installations, they are the one that is most likely to cause financial loss, or worse loss of life.
If one person has to pay out $100 bucks for someone to come as say it is ok, too bad. When you think of the client you are there to protect as making the single largest investment of their life, $100 to protect that investment is peanuts compared to the loss of all their personal possessions or worse the loss of a loved one.
Typically, around our area you are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars with the average home selling between $200,000 to $300,000. If you figure the seller or the buyer had to pay 1% of that amount to insure the home they were purchasing or selling was alright that would amount to $2,000 to $3,000. It would take a heck of a lot of professionals coming in for further evaluation to even come close to running up a bill like that.
So no, I don't feel guilty at all, I am just there to tell them what is wrong, not who should pay for what!
Originally Posted By: kmcmahon This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Even if you find one “minor” thing wrong with a panel, you have to call for evaluation…who else is going to do it? you gonna recommend the homeowner poking around in a panel to correct the problem? Ya gotta recommend someone, and while they are there, they might as well check the whole panel out!
If Zinsco panels are suspect, then you have to let your client know they are suspect. The only person that can give the OK is an electrician. If they say “nothing’s wrong”. Great…everyone can sleep better knowing that a specialist looked it over. If you don’t recommend it and there is a fire, who do you think they will file the suit agains? EVERYONE! The electrician, the builder, the seller, their agent, you…everyone! You have to cover your bases.
Originally Posted By: Randy Flockton This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Ahhh, These are simply Zinsco breakers of a different era! Jeff, what year was this home constructed? My guess is going to be late 40’s into the 50’s, unless this was an upgrade (If you ever could call Zinsco that) from something even older… In my experiance, the orange 20A Zinsco’s dont fail nearly as much… Probably because if you pulled one of those breakers out, you’d notice the bus was actually pure copper! as are the breaker contacts!.. I’m not exactly sure of the timeline for Zinsco going to the Zinc plated aluminum crap we usually see… But I know the handle colors changed when this happened
-Randy
PS, The orange Zinsco's I usually find are in the "no main/less than 6" panels... Next time I come across one of those, I'll snap some photos.. Couple hazards in those that arent picked up on easily!
-- "Prices subject to change with customers additude"
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jpope wrote:
It almost sounds as if you [Randy] know what you're talking about 
I also get the impression Randy has been around the block with electrical systems ... 
evandeven wrote:
... I mean other inspectors who recommend further evaluation for everything in the whole house ... if we are really looking out for the best interest of our clients, how many extra fees are we going to pass on to them?
I agree that everything can not be referred to an expert, but for the situation/panel Jeff posted how would you approach that and write it up? Not picking on you, just getting a good discussion going ... 
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: evandeven This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
I agree that everything can not be referred to an expert, but for the situation/panel Jeff posted how would you approach that and write it up? Not picking on you, just getting a good discussion going
The only thing I would write up is that it appears as though the wiring is not inserted under the screw far enough or there was too much of the insulation removed exposing the bare wire. It just might be the camera angle.
Aside from that, nothing. What is there to report? Nothing that can be verified. That is my criteria for reporting anything. If someone asks me why I wrote something up, I should be able to give them a plausible reason.
Back to the Zinsco issue. A few complaints on the Bob Villa board do not quantify as evidence in my opinion. By the way, didn't he get sued for improperly wiring someone's home?
-- Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com
