AFCI/GFCI Combo?

[fnewman (Frank P. Newman)]

Saw several of these breakers at today’s inspection of a new (2016) home. (see photo). The Siemens breakers have both ARC FAULT and GND trip indicator lights, but the breaker type is labeled QAF2. A quick review of Siemens literature indicated that they are AFCI only - confusing. Also the breakers did not trip when the receptacles were tested with my plug-in tester. Wonder why they have both trip indicators?

[jolson8 (John Olson)]

Combination AFCI’s are for both Parallel and Series Arcs…Dual Function are AFCI/GFCI Devices

[fnewman (Frank P. Newman)]

@jolson8

Combination AFCI’s are for both Parallel and Series Arcs…Dual Function are AFCI/GFCI Devices

Understood - but why does the AFCI combination breaker also have an indicator for GFCI (marked GND) when that function is not present? Perhaps that indicates an arc fault to ground?

[rmeier2 (Robert Meier)]

I believe that those CB’s can differentiate between a ground fault and an arc fault but they only provide arc fault protection. Troubleshooting would be easier if you knew that the CB were tripping do to an inadvertent ground fault.

[sstanczyk (Stephen Stanczyk, WA License #221)]

@fnewman

Wonder why they have both trip indicators?

The indicator lights are used to identify the reason for the trip.

If both Yellow lights are off - Overcurrent
Yellow 1 is on, Yellow 2 is off - Arc Fault
Yellow 1 is on, Yellow 2 is on - Arc Fault to ground.

[fnewman (Frank P. Newman)]

@sstanczyk

The indicator lights are used to identify the reason for the trip.

If both Yellow lights are off - Overcurrent
Yellow 1 is on, Yellow 2 is off - Arc Fault
Yellow 1 is on, Yellow 2 is on - Arc Fault to ground.

Ah - that is the explanation I was looking for. Thanks

[plesieur (Paul Lesieur, CMI)]

Did not know that. Good to know.

[jjonas (Jeffrey Jonas)]

@fnewman

Saw several of these breakers at today’s inspection of a new (2016) home. (see photo). The Siemens breakers have both ARC FAULT and GND trip indicator lights, but the breaker type is labeled QAF2. A quick review of Siemens literature indicated that they are AFCI only - confusing. Also the breakers did not trip when the receptacles were tested with my plug-in tester. Wonder why they have both trip indicators?

What tester do you own? Standard plug-in testers will only trip GFCI, not AFCI. (Didn’t want to assume you knew this with this important discussion).

[Jim_Port]

I doubt your tester generates an arc signature designed to trip a breaker. Also the signature looked for to signal an arc can vary between brands.

[wstambaugh (William H. Stambaugh, CMI)]

The breaker you have is a combo AFCI OBLY type. See the link https://w3.usa.siemens.com/powerdistribution/us/en/speedfax-product-catalog/Documents/sf-11-sect-07-019-028.pdf

The breaker checks a combination of arc faults. NO GFCI protection is provided.

Also look on the InterNACHI site for an article on AFCI’s and testing. The fact that a breaker does not mean that the breaker is bad even when testing with a good outlet tester with AFCI testing functionality.

Hope this helps.

[pabernathy (Paul Abernathy, CMI®, CMECP® Electrical Code Academy,Inc.)]

@sstanczyk

The indicator lights are used to identify the reason for the trip.

If both Yellow lights are off - Overcurrent
Yellow 1 is on, Yellow 2 is off - Arc Fault
Yellow 1 is on, Yellow 2 is on - Arc Fault to ground.

Can you tell he is Google Proficient…LOL

[sstanczyk (Stephen Stanczyk, WA License #221)]

@pabernathy

Can you tell he is Google Proficient…LOL

Someone needs to be…

[cevans (Chuck Evans, CMI)]

@fnewman

Understood - but why does the AFCI combination breaker also have an indicator for GFCI (marked GND) when that function is not present? Perhaps that indicates an arc fault to ground?

Stephen answered your question above, but I just wanted to comment on your analysis. if it doesn’t say GFCI, it’s not going to be GFCI (GND <> GFCI)