Breaker above main disconnect

It is, look closer, he removed the label sheet from clear pocket over original diagram in the first pic.

Never heard of such thing.

Which now, at least in my mind, confirms that this was a non-professional installation. An electrician, would more than likely white out what ever was in the labeling space, then add what was supposed to be there…then again…I have seen some rather creative panel labeling… :slight_smile:

Just because you “never heard of such a thing” doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Numerous homes in South Florida only had 100 amp services, and many had only 60 amp services. Those were usually with fuse panels, which, in numerous inspections I have performed on these homes, found the original box, retrofitted with a new buss bar and breakers, and the cover screwed to the wall…

There appears to be some sort of miscommunication here… Let me clarify… I have seen plenty of 100 amp services, but I never heard an insurance company refusing to underwrite for sole reason of being only 100amp, which is today’s NEC’s minimum.

There is no miscommunication. “He who has the gold makes the rules.”

In order to have a mortgage, you are required to have homeowners insurance. Here in Florida, the insurance companies have decided what they will insure and what they won’t.
I had a client who had a 19 year old shingle roof which was in perfect condition…regardless of age.
Nine months later, he got a letter stating his insurance would be dropped if he didn’t replace the roof.
Numerous others had to replace their 100 amp panels even before the home would close.
It is to the point now, that even the Realtors concede replacement of the panels as part of the contract, because they know it is going to be an issue.

And to be clear, I am not arguing with you. I am merely stating what goes on, and has gone on, here in Florida. If this doesn’t happen where you are, consider yourself lucky!

If I was to witness that in Ohio believe me that the powers to be would hear about that and most likely the insurance company would not be allowed to do this in Ohio.

Many have said the very same thing here in Florida…I’ll let you know if anyone is ever successful…

Does the building code, or any code official, require you to change an electric panel, just because of the name or color of the breakers?
The insurance company will…

Wow. That is crazy. It definitely was the same panel cover and it definitely was 100amp service, which is fine around here so far. But they do require the knob and tube be taken out regardless of what I might have to say about it

That panel is most likely overloaded. 100 amps is not enough for all those breakers and the tandems likely add to the problem. It would be a good one to look at with infrared to see if there are heat related load anomalies in the service legs. I agree with Mr Parks, I would also recommend an evaluation by a licensed electrician who will likely recommend upgrading the service and panel to accommodate the load.

Don’t get bogged down with the insurance and underwriting issues, that’s not your problem.

I like how people can determine the load based on the number of breakers and say it is overloaded. Many homes with a 200 amp service run on 60 amps.

What is being used to determine replacement or upgrade? Some nebulous feeling, a misguided math equation and all the breaker ratings were added up?

It could be as simple as adding a subpanel for more breaker space.

I agree, eyeballing it is not a good way to determine if it’s adequate or not. Now if the inspector turned on everything in the house, took a current reading and determined that is maxed out then maybe a load calculation would be needed.
My home has a 200 amp, 40 circuit panel that is full, (every circuit breaker slot is used for a branch circuit) and even with every load in the house running it probably wouldn’t exceed 100 amps

Turning everything on would not account for the diversity of loads.

Exactly but it would give you a worst case scenario. I think that most of us would agree that the 100 amp panel with 50 amps of load would not justify a recommendation for further evaluation and a load calculation.

I agree Rob, I was just pointing out that while the service might support all the loads it would not be an accurate representation of actual loads or typical usage.

Completely agree. The two methods mentioned, eyeballing the number and size of the circuit breakers or doing a load measurement are both poor but of the two the actual measurement method is better. :sunglasses:

It is clear that the panel is overloaded. That doesn’t mean that the service is undersized or overloaded.

That’s why a load calculation was recommended.

That would not be my recommendation to my clients. That’s why replacement/upgrade was recommended.

Rob I disagree. We have no idea on the buyers loads. A load calc is the best recommendation for a home inspection.

I was responding more towards Jim’s post about people eyeballing panels and not the one in the OP. In general, simply counting circuit breakers and then automatically recommending a load calculation is poor practice. Load calculations cost money and unless there are glaring issues (like the panel in the OP) then asking someone to spend a few hundred dollars on something that may not be needed at all is doing a disservice.

I do agree with you that the only real way is know if the service is undersized to perform the calculation. My question is when do you recommend one be performed and when don’t you, and what method does the HI use to make that determination?

I think that we would all agree that with the numerous problems visible in the OP’s photo further evaluation is needed.

Too many breakers does not mean a load calculation is needed. The number of circuits has little, if anything, to due with the loads.

Yup, well said. :sunglasses:

I agree, but it may allow you to detect a problem.
I turn everything on in a home when I start my inspections, at least the interior portion.
On numerous homes, the main breaker has tripped. All of those homes were equipped with 100 amp service. They also featured “creative wiring”.
I would imagine that would be an indication that something was wrong somewhere, if as has been stated, the home rarely uses all of the service available.

One house in particular stands out, 100 amp service, aluminum wiring, double-lugged breakers, extension cords in the attic used for adding fans, lights, receptacles…It took 20 minutes for that breaker to finally reset.
I explained what was happening and the conditions at the home to a friend who was a master electrician and is now the electrical plans reviewer for one of our larger cities, and asked for his recommendation. His reply, “Call a fire truck”!
Three electricians went to the property, and all recommended a complete rewire of the entire home, including a service upgrade.
That ended up in a lawsuit against the previous inspection company as the home was inspected a year prior…

I do not know if anyone posted this already but it is likely

> a back-fed main breaker

is mounted on the branch bus, occupying normal branch breaker mounting space or circuits, instead of in the separate, vertical position more typical of a main breaker.