Bsmt Waterproofing

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Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Mark … there is a difference between the source of a leak and the cause of a leak. For residential basements, which are not constructed or intended to be watertight, the usual approach is to limit the source of the leaks first.


You have some valid points (somewhat buried) about means and methods of basement waterproofing, if that more expensive option is chosen. But an HI is not the one making that call.

Just my opinion and 2-nickels ... 

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Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

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Originally Posted By: aslimack
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Mark,


Maybe i should have stated what i considered a contradiction. You have told us several times now about your water hose test. Unless the gutters/downspouts are draining right next to the home, how accurate is this re-creation of actual events. Then in the same "paragraph", you scoff at the notion of the recommendations for better grading and downspout extensions having any real impact of LESSENING the water around the perimeter of the home.

No one is saying this "fixes" the problem. The whole idea is to minimize any impact that any potential problem may have on a home. Cost effective comes into play as well. This is why a buyer will hire a home inspector as opposed to each of the following; a licenced electrician, plumber, SE, roofing contractor, Chimney, etc. For the most part, the homebuyer or homeowner has a finite amount of funds and is unable to go the route of the most costly repair on something that may or may not manifest itself as a symptom.

All foundations have or will have cracks. We give perspective and unless we see something out of the ordinary, we tell them as much. We don't tell them a plumber needs to called immediately to replace galvanized pipes but we do check the flow and let them know they will eventually need to be replaced as the flow decreases over time. An electrical deficiency would be handled differently as it would represent a potential safety hazard at the time of inspection. Perspective and prioritize. We are not in business to serve as a commercial for a foundation co., no more than a roofing co. If you have the misfortune of knowing inspectors that handle it differently, maybe you should be "educating" them.

Adam, A Plus

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Originally Posted By: Mark Anderson
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Adam–The water-test will show where any n all entryways are. Ive had to do this many, many times on estimates. And many other contractors will not and will ‘assume’ what the actual problem is(or just BS) and thats where trouble begins. Does anyone think i want to spend an extra 1 to 1 1/2 hours on an estimate? But when there is paneling against the walls and i cant see them from the inside dont ya think its best to know what the actual problem is?


As to peoples thoughts that grading--sloping dirt away from the house and downspout extensions "lessening the water around the perimeter of the home"......NO! lolol.... take a few minutes & think about what your asking some top soil and downspout extensions to do.

These diverting measures will divert...."some"...Not Much.....'surface--ground water'...away from the 'top 1-2 feet' along the wall.....that lil amount of water that these measures will divert away at--just under ground level is......still going to accumulate with ALL of the rest of the rainwater and go into the ground...saturate the ground, deeper `n deeper and spread out, wick and go in all directions underground, including under driveways `n patios and....underground back towards the bsmt walls.

Ya have to think of the whole picture when it rains...the Accumulation of ALL the rainwater as it goes into the ground, not just along ground level (or 1-2' below) along the house. Think for a minute of where all the rainwater...all of it....is going. Then think of how it saturates the soil,accumulates deeper in to the ground and around your house,your neighbors house etc.

So..like i`ve stated...these means of diverting 'some ground level' water does not take hydrostatic pressure off the outside of the walls because.....there is a ton of water in the ground below that area where the ground was raised `n sloped...and its still against the middle and lower parts of the basement wall. And when a wall has a crack in it (or other opening) water is still going to come in....come through the crack because, the crack is still open/hasnt been fixed.

Like i said.....i would rather not spend an hour+ on some estimates but when i`m unsure(finished basement) as to what the homeowners problem is.....then i`m sure as heck gonna find out, and running the hose/water test will tell me and also will tell/show the homeowner how and why they are getting water into the basement.

Funds....problem for some, sure, but i also notice how many homeowners already have or want to finish their basement...put carpet in,drywall/paneling,bar,furniture,play area for their kid...and thats fine...no problem, but geez they dont want to spend the money on fixing a leak correctly to protect the money they have or will spend on finishing the basement?

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The Real reasons basements leak

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Originally Posted By: Mark Anderson
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let me try n word this whole water diverting thing a lil different ....these means by which many people think/believe/recommend-- downspout extension/splashblock/raise n slope grade/tar-epoxy along where driveway meets house etc, they do not keep water out of the ground against the wall underneath these methods…further down in the soil,under the driveway,under where the ground was raised,under the corner downspout etc.


I know this because after digging ditches(waterproofing) along the house where these methods have already been done, been attempted. Time after time `n year after year many homeowners have tried all kinds of things to try `n divert water when they should have simply fixed the problem, the reason water was entering. There have been some who have dug along the wall,about 2-3 feet deep and......poured concrete along the wall 2-3' deep to try and divert water  lololol..i mean this is ridiculous. They going to extreme measures and spending money on things that arent going to correct the problem(and potentially causing more problems)..and in the end will have to spend more to have that concrete busted outta there.

I know these methods do not keep water away from most of the wall(and so it doesnt do diddley to lessen hydrostatic pressure either) because many many times the jobs we get where these methods have already been attmpted the ground along the wall(under the sloped grade,under driveway,under corner where 10'downspout extension was put on) after 1-2' is.....wet-saturated and sometimes extremely wet. After we dig the first cut or 2 along the wall(8--16") water is all over the place...in the ground, puddling etc. Water is in the ground....along the walls....below all of these water-diverting methods....and many cases when it hasnt rained for 1 week to 1 month. And i`m NOT talking about a high water table area either. I know it makes people feel all warm `n cozy and hopeful to 'think' they may solve a basement leak by these means. Hey...i wish it was true...i guarantee ya i`d be the first to tell the world if it were.

One cannot 'minimize the impact of a potential problem' (hydrostatic pressure) by these methods..i`m sorry. These methods do not keep water--moisture out of the ground against the basement walls, yes...they may keep a lil water away from the top 1--2' of basement wall......but the basement walls are 4--10' deep! We`ve done jobs where the home is located on a hill....1 would think most of the rainwater would be easily diverted away from the house. As Lee Corso would say "Not so fast my friend".

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The Real reasons basements leak

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Originally Posted By: Mark Anderson
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KC…The wall on which the prophets wrote is cracking at the seams–Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules…the fate of all mankind i fear is in the hands of fools

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The Real reasons basements leak

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Originally Posted By: cmccann
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Mark your one funny guy. What’s your thought on cold joints in basement walls. I see them all the time in new construction. Thanks,

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NACHI MAB!

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Originally Posted By: Mark Anderson
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GC–"if people from Poland are called “Poles” how come people from Holland arent called “Holes”? …“was just thinking about how mothers feed their babies with those little,tiny forks `n spoons…so i wondered what do chinese mothers use, toothpicks?”

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The Real reasons basements leak

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Originally Posted By: Mark Anderson
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The Real reasons basements leak

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Originally Posted By: Mark Anderson
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another example of BS…a homeowner in Warren called me after she had several Bsmt waterproofing companies give her an estimate. She tells me she has already signed an agreement with EverDry and gave them a deposit after they repeatedly called her (pressuring her)…and starts crying on the phone within a couple minutes,telling me she thinks she made a mistake and is seeking some way to get out of her contract.


After looking at her'lone' problem area...1 vertical crack on the back wall which has some mold `n efflorescence along the crack i told her all she needs is to waterproof the crack from the outside and would be approx. $800. EverDry wrote her up for an inside method(j hammer) for the entire basement...all the way around...all 4 walls   for the low low cost of a tad over $13,000! They told her if she wanted out of contract she`d lose her deposit... i believe it was $1,000. To make a Long Story...kinda short, she wound up losing her deposit- she did try to get the local media involved (this would take another 5 paragraphs,soo many turds in the world).

Folks...some of these companies will tell you anything to get your money! They told her she better hurry up and let them start immediately to stop the walls from buckling in and to stop further mold growth and that another part of her problem was blocked drain tiles under the basement floor The ONLY problem she had was 1 darn vertical crack..thats it. Her walls were straight as an arrow, the only mold was along the crack where water comes through and there was No problem under the floor...never had water come up through floor drain or cracks in floor,ever! Dont let yourselves be BS`d people C`mon ..think!

Another baffling thing is EverDry and other 'inside only' companies telling the LIE that an inside method will stop mold `n stop hydrostatic pressure that is against the outside of the bsmt wall...impossible! All they are doing is diverting the water that has already entered the wall through the crack....under the floor. The mold is going to grow and get worse because no inside j-hammer mehtod can stop the water from coming through the crack and help take any pressure off the wall, ya gotta go OUTSIDE to do that . This is why alot of these companies who install an inside method place a sheeting over-against the bsmt wall...to hide and conceal further wall movement..further mold `n efflorescence.

GC--"when is the media going understand that no one is interested in these rich-trouser stain guys who fly around the world in a Balloon? What is this...1850? Get an airline ticket would ya please! Mr Lighter than Air...i hope the next guy gets hit by lightning and lands in a sewage treatment pond with the rest of he turds"

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The Real reasons basements leak

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Originally Posted By: cradan
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contribute to minimizing hydraulic pressures. Don’t believe it? Go squat on a new construction site for a couple of days. Be a believer.


4.) Depending on what’s going on sub-grade, improved grading and water management around a given home may only help to lessen foundation leaks.


On a personal basis, I rarely refer specific contractors. There are many good reasons for this. On the other hand, when I run-across a contractor with 26 years of satisfied clients with problems (not symptoms) solved, and I perceive that contractor to be honest, hard-working and concerned first and foremost with his client's well-being, I do INDEED make an exception. Frankly, if and when my basement leaks, and improved grading, water management and sealing of obvious deficiencies all fail to keep it dry, I'm calling MARK ANDERSON.

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Chris
http://www.inspect4me.com
Chicago Illinois Home Inspections

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Originally Posted By: Mark Anderson
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Chris–Thanks for kind words…would ya believe that G Dub`s people wanted me to help them with his last state of the union address?


PFloyd..."i`ve got a mouse and he hasnt got a house i dont know why i call him Gerald. He`s getting rather old but he`s a good mouse."

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The Real reasons basements leak

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Originally Posted By: cradan
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(P.F. / R. Wright)


As regards G. Dub's folks soliciting you as a speechwriter...er...no, no I'm NOT going to believe THAT! (Come to think of it, maybe I would believe it).

Hmm...that's got me to thinking. What do you suppose the White House's foundation is composed-of? I know it burnt to the ground @ 1803...even if they re-did the foundation at that time, we could assume it was NOT poured-concrete. Stacked stone? Betcha that thing leakslikeasonofabitch.....ROFLMARSEOFF!!!!!!! How would you like the 4-year damp-proofing contract for that structure??? Maybe the mold-testing and mitigation contract, too? Any of you D.C. inspectors onto this yet???


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Chris
http://www.inspect4me.com
Chicago Illinois Home Inspections

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Originally Posted By: Mark Anderson
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i wonder how much $ they`d be willing to cough up to waterproof the bomb shelter that was added in 1952? It seems Halliburton can name their own tune, hmm.


GeorgeC--"why is it in this country that some people have no food at all and others eat a nourishing meal and puke it up intentionally.And the government was thinking about banning Toy guns...and gonna keep the !@#$%! Real ones!"

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The Real reasons basements leak

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Originally Posted By: Mark Anderson
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EverDry… http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/business/10367966.htm

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The Real reasons basements leak

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Originally Posted By: Mark Anderson
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Mold… “Inside Water-Diverting method” (j-hammer/dr.tile/p.stone)----health experts indicate that depending on the’type’of mold present in a home,the ‘amount & degree of exposure’, and the ‘health condition of the occupant’…the health effects of mold can range from being insignificant to causing allergic reactions and illness. I dont think many if any will disagree with that.


Pregnant women,infants,the elderly and those with health problems such as respiratory disease or a weakened immune system are more at risk when exposed to mold.

Discoloration is a sign of mold however all discoloration is Not due to mold. Mold may be black,white,red,orange,yellow,blue,violet etc...dab a drop of household bleach onto suspected spot....if the stain loses its color or disappears it may be mold, if there is no change it probably isnt mold.

Sometimes molds are hidden and cannot be seen (like inside the cavity-cell of a cinder block wall). A musty or earthy smell often indicates the presence of molds. But...a smell may not be present for all molds. Even when you don`t notice a smell, wet spots,dampness or evidence of a water leak are indications of moisture problems and mold may follow!

So....when any homeowner hires Any Bsmt Waterproofing Co. who wants to install an 'inside water-diverting method' many 'assume or are told by the company' this method stops water from entering. WRONG! Most leaks/seepage in basement are due to Direct Openings that are on the outside of the house including vertical/step/horizontal cracks in the basement wall and tuckpointing/caulking needs above ground in & around bricks/windows/doors and....you have to go outside and seal these openings correctly to stop water-moisture from entering which will then stop & prevent mold/efflorescence.

An inside method at best ONLY diverts water that has....already entered the wall from these openings that are outside....under the floor. So...since this method cannot and does not stop water from entering then it also cannot and does not stop/prevent mold. Ya follow?? And let`s not forget some homeowners have walls that are moving/cracking/bowing/buckling from 'outside' forces and No Inside method is going to help solve those problems...not gonna happen...dont be so easily bs`d....think, dont assume!

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The Real reasons basements leak

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Originally Posted By: Mark Anderson
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http://realtytimes.com/rtcpages/20021202_basementmoisture.htm 3rd paragraph…“most of the time,the water is coming from a source located in the basement” What? lolololol…Most of the time? Un-Be-lievable Soo many G Haege-likes who ‘think’ they know http://realtytimes.com/rtcpages/20000414_water.htm 2nd paragraph…Julie says “grading part or all of the property next to the house may solve the problem since it diverts water away from the house,keeping the FOUNDATION DRY” ??? Time after time,article after article…have these people who write this stuff EVER did Any waterproofing AND had to guarantee it over time?


Just how in the world is grading going to "keep the Entire Foundation Dry"? Grrrrrrr.....wrong-wrong-wrong-thought process kids. Hey...go ahead and raise your grade 5' up next to your dining room window fer gosh sakes, and while yer at it, go ahead and extend your downspouts as far away from your house as you can. See if the city & your neighbors will be ok with you extending them 2 miles down the road. Go ahead and keep diverting...thats what many have been doing and will continue to do, its seems too late to yank this reasoning outta people minds,its been pounded in for too long,in too many articles,repeated too many times. Most actually believe it...as I did when i was a rookie and didnt know better.

Go ahead and keep selling those houses with cracks in walls and foundation movement,keep telling the buyer that you stopped water from entering through the crack by raising the grade. But fer some reason ...there are more & more buyers taking the sellers to court on leaky basements and foundation problems.

Haege keeps pounding it into his listeners heads on the radio...all kinds of crap on Bsmt Waterproofing. Says Glen "if you want clean healthy air quality in your basment you should trust Bdry/Midwest to install an inside method"...for many years he also recommended EverDry . So...if you have crack(s) in your basement wall(s) you should have an 'inside method'..j-hammer/drain tiles....done Glen? An inside method will only divert the water that has already entered through the cracks...under the floor! Since water/moisture is still entering then mold will eventually grow if it hasnt already. How is allowing water to enter "clean,healthy air quality"?

PF--The Rain fell slow...down along the roofs,of uncertainty

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The Real reasons basements leak

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Originally Posted By: Mark Anderson
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So ya wanna raise the grade. On his radio show Glenn Haege informs his listeners to raise the grade BUT never informs his listeners who have a brick house that before ya raise the dirt up against the bricks to…seal the bricks and mortar joints …if fact rarely does anyone bring this up.


If there are open mortar joints or cracked/loose bricks or you have cheap-porous bricks your... most likely going to create some problems if you dont seal the face of the bricks `n the joints. On longer,heavier rains the dirt that you put against the bricks is going to get saturated and without them being sealed what do you think may-could happen?

And a few more things ta think about when some want to raise the grade in the backyard and along the side of the house. For those who have a garage or a back porch slab i often hear from those who already raised the grade that A) now i`m getting water on my porch floor B) now i`m getting water in my garage C) now my neighbor`s have more water in their yards/on their driveway--property and dont talk to me anymore ..lolol or the neighbor called the city on me D) since i raised the grade my bricks have a white substance on them(efflorescence)/ my bricks have moss on the face and the joints E) the lower part of my garage, the wood is starting to rot and on & on.

PF--"ticking away the moments that make up a dull day,you fritter & waste the hours in an off hand way,kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town,waiting for someone or something to show you the way"

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The Real reasons basements leak

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Originally Posted By: Mark Anderson
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http://www.indystar.com/articles/5/223398-4275-053.html


2nd Quest.....IF there is a crack in the wall(most likely is) just how ya figure that by digging down 2' etc and then sloping is going to keep ALL water away from the Entire Depth of Bsmt Wall...huh?  This 'might' Divert 'some' surface water away from the top 1-2' of the wall but its not going to divert all water that is accumulating deeper in the ground on "heavier rains" away from a 4'-8' deep wall... water is accumulating,spreading,wicking its way in all directions underground....below any diverting means. Vertical/step and some horizontal cracks run further down on the wall.

He says "Final result will drain rainwater away from the house and keep basement dry"...  ...Ok...if he says so its just gotta be true.

PFloyd.."What do ya get for pretending the dangers not real,only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air"

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The Real reasons basements leak

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Originally Posted By: aslimack
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And if the band your in starts playing different tunes…


Adam, A Plus

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Originally Posted By: mkober
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Adam, you’re breaking up his rhythm–he was well on his way to the NACHI record for consecutive, uninterrupted posts–poor guy sure likes to talk to himself. But wait–I can’t say much, since I do that all the time (just not on the BB).

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Michael J. Kober, P.E. and H.I.

"NACHI Member and Proud Of It!"