Builder prohibits walk through HI, pays dearly

Archive Public Archive
1

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Go down to “COURT RULES AGAINST BUILDER-CSPA VIOLATION IN HOME INSPECTION DISPUTE”


http://www.ohiohba.com/legal_docs/legislative_reviews/02-07-03_report_04.htm

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

2

Originally Posted By: jburkeson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Hi Jerry,


Thanks, about 30% of my business has become "New Construction Inspections" when I first started, there was much resistance with the builders and their reps, recently though relations have improved. It must be because of court rulings like this, did this happen in Florida with Maronda Homes?

Joe.

--
Joseph Burkeson, RPI (Hooperette)

?Anyone who has proclaimed violence his method inexorably must choose lying as his principle.?
~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

3

Originally Posted By: gbell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Hi Joe,


Franklin county is the Columbus Ohio area. Have you seen the story about new construction that the Orlando media is playing? They sure are ripping everyone a new one. Should be a great market in Central Florida for construction Inspections.

–
Greg Bell


Bell Inspection Service

4

Originally Posted By: jburkeson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Quote:
Have you seen the story about new construction that the Orlando media is playing?


Hi Greg,

No I haven't, do you have a link. I already pasted the article that Jerry posted on my letterhead and added it to my portfolio to show any builders who might give me a hard time about me inspecting their work.

Joe.

--
Joseph Burkeson, RPI (Hooperette)

?Anyone who has proclaimed violence his method inexorably must choose lying as his principle.?
~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
5

Originally Posted By: dave hartke
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe,


I'm currently climbing the HI learning curve and have a couple questions on new home inspections.

Do you find yourself walking on that fine line between home inspector and code inspector? How do you handle it? Some problems are obvious and blatant like no ground on main electric panel. Others are deeper in the code and may vary from one place to another like panel clips between roof decking OSB.

Example: On my own home the chimney has no cap and the flashing where it penetrates the roof could have been done better, so my bricks are cracked and the flashing leaks. I now know better methods but if the HI found this on a new home inspection should he (or she) search the code books, or recommend a better way, or simply report the construction practice used, which of course leaves the buyer puzzled?

Dave

6

Originally Posted By: pdacey
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Jerry,


Very interesting. Here in San Antonio and other parts of TX builders are making the HI sign a "Hold Harmless" agreement before they allow them to inspect a new home. The agreement pretty much shields the builder from any liability for anything the inspector finds or if the inspector gets injured on the site. Our local chapter of the Texas Association of Real Estate Inspectors is trying to find a way to fight this. Are builders doing this in other parts of the country?

--
Slainte!

Patrick Dacey
swi@satx.rr.com
TREC # 6636
www.southwestinspections.com

7

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I had one builder in VA, ENGLE homes, that had a list of inspectors that “qualified” to inspect their homes. They made the inspectors give them all of the same documents their sub contractors were required to provide. 1,000,000.00 of general liability, workers comp insurance certificate and proof of unemployment insurance and their state license. All of that was cool except that VA didn’t have an inspectors license, didn’t require unem. ins. or workers comp for non construction companies with less than 5 employees. I always wondered how the three guys on their list got there… icon_confused.gif


So far, I haven't run into any of that here, except for the County License

Blaine

8

Originally Posted By: jburkeson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Quote:
Do you find yourself walking on that fine line between home inspector and code inspector? How do you handle it? Some problems are obvious and blatant like no ground on main electric panel. Others are deeper in the code and may vary from one place to another like panel clips between roof decking OSB.


Hi David,

I use code reference as a last resort and only when there is no better way to describe the problem that would make sense, here is the code disclaimer I currently use;

"As previously stated throughout this report, we are not architects, engineers nor do we ever assume the role of the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction). Our goal is simply to help enhance the livability of a dwelling in the pre-drywall construction phase, in most cases we accomplish this by focusing on performance guidelines established by the National Association of Home Builders (NAHB) over that of building codes. Still, in regards to issues with framing we have discovered that established building codes such as the International Residential Code (IRC) are a better indicator of performance and we will address discovered defects in terms that will mostly resemble building code articles. The purpose of this disclaimer is to reiterate that we are not code enforcement officials, we referencing building codes merely to report more precisely about conditions and to communicate to other construction professionals our findings. Code references are mostly from the 2000 International Residential Code (IRC)."

I hope this helps.

Joe.

--
Joseph Burkeson, RPI (Hooperette)

?Anyone who has proclaimed violence his method inexorably must choose lying as his principle.?
~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
9

Originally Posted By: jburkeson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Quote:
I had one builder in VA, ENGLE homes, that had a list of inspectors that "qualified" to inspect their homes. They made the inspectors give them all of the same documents their sub contractors were required to provide. 1,000,000.00 of general liability, workers comp insurance certificate and proof of unemployment insurance and their state license.


Hi Blane,

I guess they could demand anything they wanted if, and I repeat if, they were paying you directly with a company check and issuing to you a 1099. That is most likely not the case, at least it hasn't been the case with my new construction inspections. I do not believe the builder would have any force over you if you were being paid directly by the buyer/client for your services.

I believe this is an either/or question, as an inspector you have to decide who you are going to work for, the buyer, or the builder, I don't think you can work for both in any given market, more than once I have been questioned by my client as to if I had any relationship with the builder. I know if I had an on-going relation with the builder in question I would have definitely lost that client's business.

I have made the decision never to work directly for any builder in my market.

Joe.

--
Joseph Burkeson, RPI (Hooperette)

?Anyone who has proclaimed violence his method inexorably must choose lying as his principle.?
~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
10

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe,


The laws in VA are most assuredly different than here, however, the builder was keeping the buyers inspectors off their property. The key was that the home is the builders property until settlement. The builder can actually keep anyone off the property he/she wishes including the buyers until settlement (except the AHJ).

I haven't ever worked for a builder as an inspector. To most builders inspector is a four letter word. As I was leaving VA, Winchester homes was also requiring a signed hold harmless agreement and 1 mill in general liability for a buyer to bring their own inspector.

Blaine

11

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


In my opinion, if an inspector is going to do new construction inspections, they need to know the code, and use it, often.


There is no longer the excuse "But which code applies?", the code for your area. There sometimes does come up 'which code applies' as when there is a code changed, then you need to ask, or make an educated guess, when the permit was applied for, and use that code.

As far as 'hold harmless' agreement with the builder, we tell our clients to do our inspection after closing, and write this on their final walk through inspection: "This walk through inspection includes the inspection report by (company name) which will be attached later because our inspector was not allowed on the property to do the inspection without interference."

If the builder does not let them finish writing that, or scratches it out, we advise them to not sign it. That means the entire walk through is up in the air, it is meaningless.

The best way to get builders to respect you, and to become allies with the building department, is to know the code. Ask the building department what code they use, call them with (intelligent) questions which show you are interested in "getting it right", give code references so the building department Will know what you are referring to.

I could go on, but you get the idea, know your codes, use them, or don't do new construction. New construction is the last place to hold the builder responsible for what they just built (well, the one year warranty, but it's easier at closing).

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

12

Originally Posted By: jburkeson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Quote:
There is no longer the excuse "But which code applies?", the code for your area. There sometimes does come up 'which code applies' as when there is a code changed, then you need to ask, or make an educated guess, when the permit was applied for, and use that code.


Jerry,

Are you familiar with "Residential Construction Performance Guidelines" published by the National Association of Home Builders (NAHB), if so, what is your opinion?

Joe.

--
Joseph Burkeson, RPI (Hooperette)

?Anyone who has proclaimed violence his method inexorably must choose lying as his principle.?
~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
13

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe,


My clients know I am not inspecting for cosmetic workmanship items. There are plenty of inspectors who do that. They want me to address if it is constructed properly, to at least the minimum code, that I can address with the AHJ.

Trying to get a builder to address something to some artifical standard? Nope, I'll let you fight those battles. If it is that bad, my clients see it. My clients also see things beyond those articficial standards.

I produce a report which can be backed up, in court, by the building code, if need be. And it has been a few times.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

14

Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Jerry:


I understand you do a lot of new construction inspections, something very rare up here. I figure new construction inspection is less than 1% of the market. What percentage of your inspection business is new construction?

Nick

15

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


It varies by month and year, but right now it is about 50%-75%.


Sometimes it drops to less than 25%. I really don't like to be 'all one market', but that is mostly beyond my control because I do not market, just go where my referrals come from.

I know a couple of inspectors here who do about 90%-100% new construction, and some inspectors who do not touch it.

This area (South Florida, consisting of Miami-Dade County, Broward County and Palm Beach County) have been on a building boom since Hurricane Andrew in 1992, and that follows a building boom which was already going on. I'd guess that probably one half of the home here now were not here 10 years ago, and I am not counting the 20,000 which had to be replaced because of Hurricane Andrew in 1992.

Personally, I am low volume, high cost, and do mostly mid-high to high end homes.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

16

Originally Posted By: dfrend
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


With only a few inspections under my belt, most of my clients are building homes. Alot of new home communities pop up in this large suburban area. It is nice because i get at least 2 inspections out of one house.

–
Daniel R Frend


www.nachifoundation.org


The Home Inspector Store


www.homeinspectorstore.com

17

Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Performing “CODE” inspections is a two way highway to say the least. If you are there to perform a code inspection you are certainly setting precedence to find every code violation which in my opinion is nearly impossible regardless of your knowledge of the codes. If you miss one code violation you are setting yourself up for some costly and possibly lengthy litigation.


You could spend weeks there looking for code violations and never really find all of them.

On the other end of that is performing inspections without any reference at all to the codes. I have found that many clients may be knowledgeable in one area or another in relation to the codes but once you start referencing codes the clients are quickly lost. The ensuing battle of the agents over who is right and who is wrong typically is enough to kill the deal because as we all know codes are open to interpretation.

I have stated on several occasions that if given 12 different plumbers the same house and told them to install the plumbing you will have 12 different installations which any or all of them are code compliant.

When confronted with builders that will not allow me to inspect properties for clients I simply make them look like an butthead in front of the client. I ask them why they will not let me inspect the property, what are they trying to hide. Are there un-disclosed conditions on the property they should be relating to the buyer. Finally, the inspection documents everything just before purchase so it is protecting the builder also for conditions that develop after the sale. The report will include colored pictures which clearly provide physical evidence of conditions which did not exist at the time of the closing.

You do not have to provide a cosmetic inspection but you certainly would want to perform a good common sense inspection. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers

18

Originally Posted By: dave hartke
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe, Joe, Jerry,


Thanks for your different perspectives on when, where and what codes to use on new homes.

It appears a new inspector may be on dangerous ground with a new home inspection, unless he or she is well versed with codes. I'm now wondering what marketing message one would be sending by admitting this limitation and passing on the new homes. Nick?

Dave

19

Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Dave,


Not really. I am saying that I perform "new" home inspections all the time. Typically, I don't quote codes on any of the inspections that I perform.

Is what I am saying is that if you are going to call one code violation you will be expected to call all of them.

Either way, I don't perform code inspections and I do tell clients that up front. I always give them the option to find another home inspector if they wish to do so. To my recollection, I have not lost any inspections because of it. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers

20

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joseph,


We are not doing "code" inspections any more than we are doing "safety" inspections or "workmanship" inspections.

Would you say "If you report one workmanship issue, you will be expected to report all workmanship issues."? Or, "If you report one safety issue you will be expected to report all safety issue issues."?

No. You report what you see. However, in NEW construction, what you see was (er, should have been) built to code.

Do you call out missing GFCI protection? My guess is. yes you do. Okay, now you've just established that you do a code inspection, right? That is what you said. You just did not realize it.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida