circuit breaker clip?

Originally Posted By: rod figueroa
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Can anyone answer a stupid question? I inspected a zinsco panel that had a metal clip on one of the two-pole breakers. the clip appeared to prevent the breaker from being able to trip. Is this possible? Did they make something like this at one time?


[ Image: circuit breaker whatchamacallit ]


Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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I can’t tell for sure from the picture, but it appears as though this is a lock out device, which can be used for certain equipment in lieu of a disconnect within site.


They also have the opposite of that for emergancy lighting systems, which keeps people from turning the breaker off easily.


--
Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: rpalac
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this is a factory item that you use to prevent some one from turning a specific breaker off. It does not prevent the breaker from being tripped, it just prevents the person from turning it off. The physical action of over current tripping or short circuit tripping will still function internally rendering the breaker off.


This clip or breaker lock is used commonly in commercial applications rather than residential.

Uses include:
Alarm systems
Emergency Lighting
Refrigeration Circuits
Exit Lighting
Cooling and Heating Circuits
and any other circuits that a customer would need to make sure they are not accidentally turned off.


Bob P.


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Opposite of what Bob P. said (actually, can be used for either, just wanted to bring up what I see them used most for).


They serve as a lock out to KEEP the breaker off.

Instead of having a disconnect at the appliance, you can lock off the breaker, so no one can turn it back on while you are working on the appliance.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: rpalac
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I disagree with Jerry…


I guess we al need to back up our facts.


In commercial/industrial use these are very common and designed so that the breaker can not inadvertently be turned to the off position by damaging equipment or leaving safety equipment useless.

They do not stop the breaker from acting to its design of tripping internally.

They by OSHA standards CAN NOT be used as a safety device for personnel protection for the mere reason that anyone can remove them with a screw driver. This particular breaker lock is designed to hold a switch in the on position or possibly in the off position but not for use with personal safety.

There are more specific safety switch protection for working on a breaker that OSHA recognizes. They must be key operated and the kept or keys must be held by the individual working on the circuit. This is all referenced in OSHA books. I don't have the exact reference material with me while I'm traveling but I would be happy to get it for you.

I was a safety inspector and had taken OSHA's courses to learn these facts. I also at one time thought that they were acceptable for lock out tag out safety. OSHA corrected me on that. In addition when lock out tag out is in effect it must be accompanied by a tag explaining the date and individuals name and time he or she is working on the item. (there are a number of sub categories to this as well

Bob P. (next....your serve)


Originally Posted By: rpalac
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example of lock outs for safetyhttp://search.aimhome.netscape.com/aim/boomframe.jsp?query=circuit+breaker+locks&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D53f65fec14e226c2%26clickedItemRank%3D3%26userQuery%3Dcircuit%2Bbreaker%2Blocks%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bradyeurope.com%2Fweb%2FSiteBuilder%2FBradyEurEN-SEO.nsf%2FFLV%2FApplication%2B-%2BLockout%2B-%2BCircuit%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DAIMResults%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bradyeurope.com%2Fweb%2FSiteBuilder%2FBradyEurEN-SEO.nsf%2FFLV%2FApplication%2B-%2BLockout%2B-%2BCircuit



Osha training for lock out tag out q'shttp://search.aimhome.netscape.com/aim/boomframe.jsp?query=circuit+breaker+locks&page=2&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D69fbb90a259227cd%26clickedItemRank%3D12%26userQuery%3Dcircuit%2Bbreaker%2Blocks%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ibiblio.org%252Fobp%252Fbooks%252Fsocratic%252Foutput%252Flocktag.pdf%26invocationType%3Dnext%26fromPage%3DAIMNextPrev%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibiblio.org%2Fobp%2Fbooks%2Fsocratic%2Foutput%2Flocktag.pdf

Other ref;
http://www.bmillerengineering.com/lockout.htm.


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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rpalac wrote:
In commercial/industrial use these are very common and designed so that the breaker can not inadvertently be turned to the off position by damaging equipment or leaving safety equipment useless.

They do not stop the breaker from acting to its design of tripping internally.


I acknowledged that.

Quote:
They by OSHA standards CAN NOT be used as a safety device for personnel protection for the mere reason that anyone can remove them with a screw driver.


Let me get this straight. They are used to lock a breaker on, and are considered safe for that, but they are not to be used to lock the breaker off, because they can be pried out? And when used to lock the breaker on, there is some magical potion which prohibits it from being pried out?

Quote:
This particular breaker lock is designed to hold a switch in the on position or possibly in the off position ...


That's what I said.

Quote:
but not for use with personal safety.


Huh?

(B) Appliances Rated Over 300 Volt-Amperes or Horsepower. For permanently connected appliances rated over 300 volt-amperes or 1/8 hp, the branch-circuit switch or circuit breaker shall be permitted to serve as the disconnecting means where the switch or circuit breaker is within sight from the appliance or is capable of being locked in the open position.


Sure seems to me that that device fulfills the last part.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Robert I have been Lock out tag out trained and I know of no OSHA standard that would rule out using this device for lock out once a padlock is put in the appropriate hole.


Many approved lock out tag out devices are made of plastic and can be overcome with a simple set of cutters.

I have a lock out tag out kit in my truck most of the devices could be easily circumvented.

Also if the breaker is not capable of being locked out OSHA allows the use of only the tag out with proper documentation.

I will find that OSHA standard and post it here soon. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)

Bob


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Robert it strikes me that you may be confusing this breaker loc with the simpler kind that does not accept a pad lock in that case I agree with you.


This is not one of those, I am confident a padlock can be placed in this device.


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: rpalac
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Hi,


Yes it is confusing which is what and which item we are refering to.


The item that I am refering to that is not acceptable for lock out tag out is a metal device that is aplied using a set screw by a screw driver. It does not have a means of applying a lock.

It is intended for a simple means of keeping a circuit on such as emergency lighting, exit signs, etc.

The other type of device does have a hole for a lock and is ment as a lock-out tag out device and not for locking it on.

The picture in the link apeared to me to be a keep your *(*)()(&^##&& hands off metal protector because this is a circuit that should not be touched by anyone else but a qualified personal that sefvices this panel. It does not apear to be a lock-out/tag-out device for safety.

Bob P. or who ever one I am....... gosh I'm more confused now about which one of whom that i is.


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Bob P.,


This is that photo.

[ Image: lock-out device with holes for lock ]


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Thanks for the updated photo Jerry.


I knew NACHI kept you around for something. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


Just a joke, no hidden meanings.


Respectfully, Bob B.


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum