Clarification on wiring type

I operate in an area where I see this old wiring almost weekly.
The condition you describe is extremly rare, and is typically the other way around. The sheathing becomes brittle, but the rubber stays intact, unless there is physical damage to it, which will occur with ANY wiring including modern.

The conductors in your photograph are NM. Cloth is a generic colloquial term that applies to a variety of fabric insulations. The Citizens Four Point report has a checkbox for “Cloth”. You should check the box for any fabric insulated conductors. However, there are specialty conductors, such as fixture wires, that are also fabric but do not need to be identified as Cloth unless they are used in branch circuits (which is unlikely).

The State Farm Four Point Report has “Romex” listed. That was a stupid move on the part of the person who designed the form. I recommend checking the “Other” box and putting either “NM” or “Cloth” as the description. Calling any other brand NM “Romex®” could have serious consequences if there were a fire. Southwire has a right and a duty to defend its Romex® trademark. Having been involved with many fire and building failure investigations, I can assure you that improper use of any trademark could have dire consequences.

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So the outer cloth is not considered cloth insulated conductors?

The key word is “insulated”. Rubber insulates the conductors. The cloth is a sheathing that protects the rubber from abrasion/physical damage.

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So you wouldn’t call the OP wire pics cloth wiring?

Hi Justin,
So my take at this time is that the wire that would be unacceptable has a cloth outer cover and rubber insulation. Is that correct? What I see most often is cloth outer cover and plastic insulation. The 4-point form only asks if there is “cloth wire”. This puts me, and I assume other inspectors, in a place of determining the type of wire while often being unable to conclusively determine the insulation. I was told through a realtor who spoke with an electrician that some cloth wire is acceptable and some is not. All the research I have done to this point(Thorough this forum and inspectapedia) did not give any listing of acceptable wiring nor any way to conclusively identify it.

You are correct in identifying it as “Cloth” for purposes of a Four Point inspection. All you have to do is to check the “Cloth” box on the Citizens Four Point report. No additional description is needed. Keep it simple.

The Citizens Four Point has a checkbox for “Cloth” as the wiring type. I agree that the wiring should not be described as “Insulated cloth”.

For purposes of the electrical inspection, some inspectors tend to overthink it. All they have to do is check the “Cloth” box or not check it. If the conductor has a fabric covering, the box has to be checked.

Citizens is not an ordinary insurance company. It is a an insurance company created by, and is under the auspices of the state and is intended to provide a safety net for Florida home owners. Traditional insurance companies can have stricter rules than Citizens or they can have less strict rules. However, if a homeowner cannot find affordable insurance, the home must conform to the Citizens Standard in order to get insurance through Citizens. Until recently (February 9, 2018), State Farm had the strictest requirements in the state. The Citizens requirements are now on par with the State Farm requirements.

Roy, I have helped many Florida insurance companies with understanding technical aspects of the Four Point reports. As Jeffrey said, most are desk-jockeys. They struggle with understanding some of this stuff. They call me because my name comes up in internet searches. They don’t hire me. I answer their questions as a professional courtesy. I have, on occasion, gone directly to Citizens for interpretations of stuff in their reports. I don’t go into a lot of detail with the insurance company people because they don’t want a lot of detail. They just want to know the essentials.

As I mentioned in an earlier message, for purposes of the Four Point report, “Cloth” is a generic term that is on the Citizens form and can include a wide variety braided fabrics. If any conductors are present that have an outer covering of any fabric and are used for branch circuit wiring, the “Cloth” box should be checked. Any braided fabric conductors that are an integral part of a piece of equipment or a fixture are not included.

George,
Is this unique to Florida? Up here in the North insurance inspections are pretty much unheard of. I’ve owned several homes and had half a dozen different insurance companies over the years and not one of them has ever set foot in my house.

Robert, it is the same in Ohio. Insurance companies never set foot in the house

Same here.

Florida is pretty strict. It used to be over 40, now 30 years old & they require a 4 point. They are afraid to bind coverage , let’s say if there’s a roof leak or a non-grounded outlet.
They don’t want a $20,000 mold claim or an electrocution claim.

Sometimes they are deal killers, but sometimes it is to the buyer’s advantage.
Hey! Mr. seller- please fix this stuff so I can get required insurance for my mortgage. No mortgage no deal so please get to it.
It’s not going away for the next deal. :cowboy_hat_face:

Then… … … after closing you may get a letter in the mail, per your insurance contract, they are doing a QA on the 4 point and/or windmit.
If you refuse you’re cancelled.

Robert,

Yes, it is a Florida thing. The My Safe Florida Home program and Citizens were established about 20 years ago because all the major insurance companies were pulling out of Florida after major hurricane losses.

Insurance companies moved back into Florida and Citizens provides a safety net to Florida home owners. The program has evolved over the past 20 years to where now wind mitigation and four-point inspections are routine.

I got involved 15 years or so ago because I was getting requests from inspection software customers for wind mitigation and four-point add-ons. The demand grew so much that I decided to sell the software to anyone who needed it, even if they don’t use my home inspection software.

I expanded my line-up to where I now also have the Citizens Electrical report, Florida WDO, Citizens roof inspection, commercial wind mitigation, windstorm protective device, and mobile home tie-down reports.

Thanks for the explanation George. Insurance regulations vary from state to state but it sounds like the insurance companies have a lot of power down there in Florida.

Way more that is needed.