Concrete Porch abutting siding

(Steve Costa) #1

How would you write up concrete that was poured up to the siding. Basically the siding guys got there first and the concrete guys poured the porch against the siding. I'm looking for some good verbiage, and the potential problems.

Thanks, Steve

0 Likes

(Stephen W. Stanczyk, WA License #221) #2

Steve,

What type of siding was it?

0 Likes

(Steve Costa) #3

Vinyl

0 Likes

(Steve Costa) #4

Here are some pictures.

0 Likes

(homebild) #5

If the concrete porch deck is not connected to the building/siding and can be replaced whilst doing nothing to the concrete porch, then the builder's did the wise and noble thing and you should write-up nothing.

Otherwise, section R703.8 FLASHING of the 2006 International Residential Code requires that the porch/wall attachement be flashed to prevent water infiltration.

0 Likes

(Marcel R. Cyr, CMI) #6

http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=14231&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1188613285 http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=14232&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1188613298

Don't know how anyone could condone this type of installation.
Betwee the frost action and water intrusion, who knows what will happen.

That concrete slab should be under the siding by at least 6-8" in my opinion.

The house is set too low on the property for this to happen without causing a negative grade.

Marcel :)

0 Likes

(Michael D. Thomas) #7

Not sure what I'm looking at; that could be anything from a balcony interface with the wall several floors up on a condo and partially protected by the balcony above to a patio slab at grade behind a single family home.

Wherever it is, not right.

But how wrong it is depends on where it is.

For example, if that was a patio slab, poured up to the siding on the rear wall of the house (something I see from time to time in my area) it's IMO a big problem:


Observation: At [location] concrete flatwork has been poured up to the vinyl siding and the bottom course of siding is embedded in the concrete.

Analysis: The lower edge of the siding should be separated from grade. For vinyl siding a separation of 6-8” is typically recommended. When the lower edge of the siding is below grade moisture can be wicked up behind the siding and insects and vermin can enter the building unobserved. Either can cause severe damage to building materials behind the siding. This damage can extend a considerable distance above grade and/or into the building, and can become extensive before it is discovered. It is possible that such damage will be discovered when the siding is removed. Repair or replacement of the portions of concrete flat-work and/or the foundation wall adjacent to and/or behind the siding may also be required. Repair of this defect could be a substantial expense.

Recommendation: Have a licensed and insured contractor relocate the siding to proved a minimum of 6” separation from grade, and perform any associated repairs as required.

0 Likes

(Mark Nahrgang, C.R.I.) #8

"Observed non-standard installation of concrete on the patio (See photo this section). The siding should be 4-8 inches above the surface of the concrete. It is unknown what type of water/insect access is available/occurring under the siding below the surface level of the cement. As heaving and settling occurs the owner should also expect damage to occur to the siding possibly causing additional water intrusion. Reccomend repair by a qualified professional."

0 Likes

(Larry Kage, CMI) #9

Often, homebild, I agree with your answers but in this case I don't agree.

Pouring concrete up onto siding is neither wise nor noble. :shock: Typically, there is OSB type sheathing behind the siding with white wood framing and these will rot quickly with moisture running down the crack between the concrete and siding.

0 Likes

(David P. Valley) #10

I don't like this mortar application either, but what do you expect the homeowners to do now? Tear it out? I think not.

Make it simple...Write up what you see and don't lose sleep over shoddy workmanship.

0 Likes

(Michael D. Thomas) #11

It may not be what's going to be done, but it may be what should be done.

At a minimum, I want my client to understand that there is the potential for very expensive damage behind that wall. And I'd sleep fine if that knowledge caused a client to walk away from a house, for starters that situation is a prescription for creating *massive*termite infestation before damage is discovered.

0 Likes

(Larry Kage, CMI) #12

Really, it is not your decision to make. It is the clients decision, once he is educated about it.

0 Likes

(Kenneth Lott, 001236461) #13

Just repositioning the siding will not solve anything, the sheathing and framing will still be in contact with the concrete, that slab needs to be ripped up and a new one poured lower or not at all, it doen't even need further evaluation, I would recommend what I said above by a qualified contractor, and call it out as a major expense.

0 Likes

(Kenneth Lott, 001236461) #14


Are you sure that bottom course is siding, it looks like it is straight up like the side of a slab, but it is still to close to grade.

0 Likes

(Michael D. Thomas) #15

Probably *true. I can't tell from those pictures, however, how far the foundation wall extends above grade, it's *possible that they sided down over a foot of foundation wall before the slab was poured. Likely, if I was on site, I would be able to discover what was done. But unless you are seeing something I'm missing, we don't know for certain from those pictures.

0 Likes

(Kenneth Lott, 001236461) #16

Well you know that the framing and sheathing stopped at floor level, so it is highly improbable that they would extend the siding down the foundation wall 12". I am judging according to standard building practices.

0 Likes

(Steve Costa) #17

I thought I had more pictures but I don't.
It was a raised (two steps up from grade) covered concrete porch approximately 24'X6' on the back of a 1999 home. It was vinyl siding. All siding, vinyl trim is extending below the concrete.
It is OSB behind the siding with no vapor barrier. The concrete was tool cut, there were cracks in the tool joints.
In the basement below this area, heavy staining and efflorescence on the block wall.
I believe wind driven rains or washing the porch allows water down the foundation.
I wrote it up, its just wrong. The client will decide what has to be done if anything.

Steve

0 Likes

(homebild) #18

Larry,

As someone else stated, it depends on the location.

Is this a slab from an unattached raised porch? Then it probably doesn't does not matter.

Is this an attached balcony? Then it matters if there is no flashing.

Is this a slab-on-grade with the siding going down behind the concrete? Then it matters if the siding terminates below grade.

It isn't clear from the photos or the description just what's going on here.

It could be a perfectly fine installtion or one that needs immediate attention.

Doesn't appear that anyone else has a clear idea either.

0 Likes

(Larry Kage, CMI) #19

I understand your points and I can't see how pouring concrete up onto siding, where ever it is, could be perfectly fine.

0 Likes

(homebild) #20

If the porch is unattached to the main structure, it doesn't matter if water can get between the concrete and siding or foundation because it will cause no problems.

But the fact that there is efflorescence on the foundation walls immediately below this area does indicate water getting through the masonry.

From where that water is coming remains the question and whether the slab/siding interface has anything to do with it has not been established....but you were certainly right to note the efflorescence and be alerted by it's presence.

0 Likes