I purchased a pre-1950s home about a month ago and it was inspected prior to purchasing. I found my inspector to be knowledgeable but after starting to do some renovations we found major electrical issues. The home is primarily on knob and tube wiring with a more contemporary 125 amp breaker box. About half the outlets are knob and tube and all the light switches are knob and tube but have contemporary light fixtures. The home has all 3 prong outlets but none of them are ground and we found that the previous owner used a fake GFCI outlet and did what my electrician referred to as a bootleg ground to make outlets appear like they were ground using a tester. We also found that in the attic there is blown in insulation covering active knob and tube which is a hazard. My home inspector did state in the inspection that some knob and tube was found but was not energized or in use so we didn’t question it. Is this worth contacting the home inspector over? I have no expectation of any financial recourse and I know that nearly all inspectors limit their damage to their home inspection fee and clearly some of these issues are due to a deceptive seller but I’m wondering if I should still let them know in a polite manner.
I would want to know if I missed something. I would have to see exactly what was visible and written in the report to know if I would have reported differently.
Unless any of this was readily visible, it’s not going to go anywhere. We can’t see through walls, we do not remove receptacle covers to see if it has a bootleg ground, we just trust our testers. We are not going to go digging through a foot of insulation looking for hidden knob and tube. We do the best we can in the time we have. Maybe if people would actually pay us more we could actually do a more investigation type inspection. But we are very limited on what we are allowed to do. As it’s not the buyers house yet, it’s not our house, and we don’t have permission from the homeowner to tear a house apart looking for issues.
If there was any exposed and readily visible K&T wiring that was found to be energized, I would give him a call and invite him back out to look at it.
If the K&T was hidden, with open exposed areas having cut or inactive K&T, then I would say he did his job well, but as a courtesy you might consider giving him/her a phone call just to let them know there was hidden K&T found in walls, under insulation etc. and that there was no way of knowing this until things were opened up that would go beyond the scope of a home inspection.
I would want to know, but as others have stated, the inspection was limited to observable defects.
When I “inspected” my 1920 house, the exposed wiring was all updated, but all of the lighting wiring was still knob and tube and knob and tube buried in the attic insulation.
Bootlegged grounds are no accident, they are intentional. You may have a case against the seller or the sellers electrician.
A ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) helps protect people from electrocution, but does a GFCI need to be grounded? While it’s true that you can still install a GFCI outlet even if the circuit doesn’t have a ground wire, doing so has a few disadvantages. Your electronic devices won’t be protected if there’s a ground fault, for example, and a plug-in tester on the GFCI outlet won’t work. But an ungrounded GFCI outlet will still shut off in the event of a ground fault, so it can help keep your family safe. Here’s what you need to know about ungrounded GFCI outlets.
Can a GFCI Outlet Be Installed Without a Ground Wire?
If your circuit doesn’t have a ground wire, you can still install a GFCI outlet for protection. GFCI outlets without a ground wire are legal and work; however, choosing to install GFCI outlets without a ground wire does come with some disadvantages.
Ungrounded GFCI Outlets Offer Less Protection
For one, though ungrounded GFCI outlets offer you some protection (the GFCI outlet will sense when there is a ground fault and shut off), they will not protect your electronics in the chance of a ground fault. You need a ground wire and surge protector for the most protection against damaged electronics.
Plug-In Testers Are Less Reliable with Ungrounded GFCI Outlets
Another problem with installing a GFCI outlet without a ground wire is that a plug-in tester on the GFCI outlet won’t work, even if pressing the actual test button on the receptacle does. This can be confusing, but if the receptacle trips via the built-in tester, this indicates that it works.
Reach out to the inspector. Have him/her explain the limitations of K&T wired circuits.
Knob and tube wiring is safe, if properly maintained by a Licensed Electrical Contractor.
Older electrical systems do not have the same safety benefits of modern ones. For example, ground fault circuit interrupters make bathrooms and outdoor locations safer.
Likely no ground conductor on K&T.
I usually did on older homes…
To answer your question yes contact the Inspector and have a discussion with them about your concerns regardless of what your intentions are.
It would be interesting to see the wording from the report regarding the K&T and any other verbiage relating to the electrical system if you do not mind cutting and pasting it.
As Manny said the simple answer is yes, contact the inspector first. It probably says that in the agreement you have with them, if you run into any issues the first thing to do is call them.
What you found after doing renovations has no bearing on what your Inspector found as he did not renovate your home, nor did he move the insulation. After your inspector pointed out in the inspection that there was knob and tube wiring was your opportunity to further investigate, which it does not appear that you did. The inspector did his job, this is on you.
Verbatim: “Some knob and tube wiring found, appears to be not energized and is inactive.” This was all that was said about it. The electrician who just came out to quote me on a rewire said they felt the inspector didn’t fully walk the attic (it is walkable and has the potential to be finished) because the active knob and tube was in attic at the front of the house and that most of it was not covered by insulation. In the inspection report there was a mini report at the beginning of the most urgent issues and this was not listed as one of them.
I like most of what’s been said. You could certainly help the inspector by giving him a call. In my state, MD, knob and tube is permitted - in other words it is not an urgent issue. It can’t be installed new but is allowed in older homes. It does have obvious disadvantages, no ground, and may be undesirable from the point of view of your insurance.
With all that said, I make every attempt to check ALL accessible areas of knob and tube to determine what is active. It doesn’t sound like this was done.
Bootleg grounds most readily reveal themselves when the panel cover is removed and there are no circuit grounds but the outlet tester was good on all the outlets. The lack of circuit grounds should be in the report.
The presence of three hole outlets on pre-1950 homes is always suspect.
Unfortunately since we were not there we would not be able to agree/disagree with the electrician. However if that’s all that was written it was a disservice to you not to explain you may need an electrician to further evaluate/check the system.
Robert also makes some very good points.
It would be interesting to know the following.
- Did the Inspector make any comments in the report stating that the attic was not walked, had limited access and was limited to only walking “X” area?
- In the attic sections were there any pictures or comments to indicate the Inspector moved beyond any access decking?
- In the electrical section did the Inspector make any comments about the lack of grounds in the panel?
- Did the Inspector provide any courtesy pictures of the panel interior?
There may be signs in these that the Inspector did not perform their job.
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No, the inspector did not state the attic was not walked. It is walkable as 3 electricians have now done so.
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They took a photo of the insulation and that was it. I think the inspector probably just stayed but the attic access and took photos of the insulation and hvac in the attic.
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The inspector did take a photo of the panel interior and the only comment was: functional
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The inspector noted 1 unground outlet on the porch. The remaining outlets were tested with the plug in tester but we found the previous owner did a bootleg ground on them.
Just so you’re on the same page, This is a “bootleg ground”
The reason this ‘fools’ an outlet tester is that the neutral (grounded conductor) is connected to the ground bus at the electrical panel. All the tester knows is that the light connected between the hot (ungrounded conductor) and the ground pin on the outlet lights. On a properly wired outlet this happens because the ground lead is connected to the neutral at the panel. On a bootleg ground the same light illuminates because the neutral is jumped to the ground lug. The tester doesn’t know the difference.
when the panel is opened this becomes apparent because where we would normally see all the circuit ground leads connected to a bus bar, there are none.
Can you post the picture of the opened panel?
It is a low resolution picture but I can not see any equipment ground conductors (ground wires from outlets) entering the panel box anywhere. That would be a reason, along with the presence of K&T (active or not) to possibly perform at least one or two outlet cover plate removals to determine what might be there for wiring. There might also be other issues there in the panel but again the picture quality is so low.
I will cover each item by number corresponding to your statements above.
- Whether to walk an attic or not is a decision the Inspector makes. Depending on your State and any licensing laws/rules they may be allowed to do so. I walk any attic I can safely walk that will not damage insulation or other objects along the path. If I can not walk it I clearly state this so the client is aware that I could not and why. By not specifying he did not walk the attic I would expect he did. In that case any visible K&T wiring in the walked areas could be checked with a hot stick (voltage sniffer) the size of which easily fits in the pocket. So it is expected that either he walked the attic and possibly missed something or he did not walk the attic and failed to indicate that.
- For the entire attic section(s) of the report were there only the two pictures mentioned here?
- See above.
- See above about removing a couple of outlet face covers.
Where is the house located (State is sufficient)?
Again the picture of the panel is not clear but it does appear to be an older panel. With that, the lack of visible grounds in the panel, and the outlets reading a good ground, I would be concerned enough to check further which is as simple as removing outlet/switch covers to see if visible how they were wired.
At the time of this build, and possibly when the K&T wiring was partially replaced, the lack of the equipment grounding conductor (third prong of the plug) may not have been in use or required for use. So if we compared it to the age of the home you can say the panel is functional. The panel may have been “functional” but “functional” does not equate to “functional and safe”.
The report might show otherwise in other wording but it is my opinion that in this particular area we are discussing, and with what you have presented, the Inspector may have dropped the ball significantly. Yes I would nicely approach the Inspector with this and any other items you may have found that should have been noted in the report to discuss why they were not in the report and why emphasis was not placed on this issue we are discussing.
Did I miss the OP providing the actual inspection report for review? I feel it behooves any inspector to not speculate on another inspector’s observations at the time of inspection and throw them under the bus needlessly.
Yeah, I would like to see the ACTUAL report before speculating.
Don’t we commonly realize, from past experience, that what is presented is not always the full representation of the facts?
Unless the inspector reported a restriction that prevented them from accessing the portion of the attic where the knob and tube wiring was located, their only failure was the obligation to identify the wiring method (type).
The fix for knob and tube buried under insulation is removing the insulation, not rewiring the house.
You would be doing the inspector a favor by contacting them and making them aware of their failure to identify the wiring type. Ask for a refund of the inspection fee for damages, and they will never let it happen again.