Correct way for second "Off Peak" meter

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#1

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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While it is true that most “Off Peak” meters are simply connected illegally to supply the water heater element during the early am, this www.necdirect.org NECH image shows what I believe to be the correct way.


![](upload://nHb3pTpFrNuq9WchmfphFopMr4W.jpeg)

In any case the HI should make a comment if they see the type of installed as show below.



--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

#2

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Joe,


All "off-Peak" meters here in Massachusetts are now out of commission. Every one that I've inspected has the meter removed and capped.

--
David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

#3

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Thanks David:


I would appreciate seeing some images if you have any.

--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

#4

Originally Posted By: dvalley
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


You want an image of a capped “off-peak”?

–
David Valley


MAB Member


Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."
#5

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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I just pulled an off peak meter off a house in Walpole MA.


Well it was a normal meter still feeding the water heater.

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

#6

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


dvalley wrote:
You want an image of a capped "off-peak"?


Yes please, a shot showing the service and two meter sockets with one blanked off.

Bob:

So now do they have to pay a higher rate?

--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm
#7

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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Well what I think was going on is at one point they had the offpeak metering.


When that was discontinued instead of moving the wiring in the house the off peak meter was pulled and a normal meter put in it's place.

I would imagine they where paying the same rate for both meters, now that I upgraded from a 100 to a 200 they have one meter and one service disconnect.

I gave the homeowner the 'extra' meter and told them to get it back to the POCO

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

#8

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Around here they just hook up a black (box PLC controlled) that switches the HVAC contactors and a contactor for the water heater. FPL actually put the water heater contactor in an existing HVAC cabinet at my mom’s house. It took me a while to figure out what was going on the first time I looked at that puppy.

#9

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Joe T,


I know it is a little late, but what exactly is wrong with the second picture of the two meters?

Am I missing something?

What should I comment on?

--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

#10

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe


The meter socket enclosure and raceway installed on the right was added where the supply wires were doubled lugged in the meter socket enclosure on the left, so as to supply another illegal bootleg occupancy or equipment. I don't think it was for an "off peak" water heater.

The AHJ may have allowed this, however, it is a common "illegal" installation.

I am not sure why the utility company seals their meter in this type of situation.

There is nothing here that can make this right, it is a defect!

This was a commercial store as I mentioned above.

I could not find anything in this book that covers utility installations showing this as being acceptable:

http://www.nationalgridus.com/non_html/shared_construction_greenbk.pdf

--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

#11

Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe T,


I am assuming that you mean the lugs in the meter panel on the left are not rated for multiple wires under each termination.

In this case, would it need to be UL listed for multiple terminations on the lugs? Do you know of any manufacturer of meter panels that uses lugs which are rated for multiple wires?

--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

#12

Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


jtedesco wrote:
There is nothing here that can make this right, it is a defect!


Joe what is 'right' in this case is up to the AHJ. It is not as black and white as you want it to be or make it sound.

I don't bring this up to bust your chops only to let the HIs what they are getting into.

2002 NEC
Quote:
90.2 Scope.


(B) Not Covered. This Code does not cover the following:

(5)Installations under the exclusive control of an electric utility where such installations

a.Consist of service drops or service laterals, and associated metering, or

b.Are located in legally established easements, rights-of-way, or by other agreements either designated by or recognized by public service commissions, utility commissions, or other regulatory agencies having jurisdiction for such installations, or

c.Are on property owned or leased by the electric utility for the purpose of communications, metering, generation, control, transformation, transmission, or distribution of electric energy.


Off Peak metering is metering under the control of the utility.

I have no idea why you said.

Quote:
I am not sure why the utility company seals their meter in this type of situation.


They 'seal it' for the same reasons any meter is sealed, to prevent theft.

There is also;

2002 NEC
Quote:
90.2 Scope. (C) Special Permission.

The authority having jurisdiction for enforcing this Code may grant exception for the installation of conductors and equipment that are not under the exclusive control of the electric utilities and are used to connect the electric utility supply system to the service-entrance conductors of the premises served, provided such installations are outside a building or terminate immediately inside a building wall.


Between 90.2(B)(5)(a) and 90.2(C) there is plenty of room for interpretation by the AHJ.


The HI might say in the report that this may be a defect IMO they should not say it is a defect unless they research it with the AHJ and the POCO.

Just my opinion, Bob

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
#13

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


jmyers wrote:
Joe T,

I am assuming that you mean the lugs in the meter panel on the left are not rated for multiple wires under each termination.

In this case, would it need to be UL listed for multiple terminations on the lugs? Do you know of any manufacturer of meter panels that uses lugs which are rated for multiple wires?


Here are the rules that are supposed to be followed in the State of Massachusetts, and all licensed electricians in Massachusetts should be aware of them.

Quote:
90.4. Revise the first paragraph to read as follows:

90.4 Enforcement. This Code shall be used by the authority enforcing the Code and exercising legal jurisdiction over electrical installations. The authority having jurisdiction of enforcement of the Code shall accept listed and labeled equipment or materials where used or installed in accordance with instructions included with the listing or labeling. The authority shall have the responsibility for deciding upon the approval of unlisted or unlabeled equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules.

90.6. Revise to read as follows:

90.6 Interpretations and Appeals. To promote uniformity of interpretation and application of the provisions of this Code, interpretations may be requested from the Board of Fire Prevention Regulations. Requests for interpretation shall be in the form of a question that can receive a ?Yes? or ?No? answer. This in no way supersedes the right of any individual who is aggrieved by the decision of an Inspector of Wires to appeal from that decision to the Board of Electricians? Appeals in accordance with M.G.L. c. 143 ?3P. The Board of Fire Prevention Regulations shall, upon the request of the Board of Electricians? Appeals, render interpretations to the Board of Electricians? Appeals.


Joe NO this type of installation is illegal, and the meter is not an "OFF PEAK" meter.

Bob, I stand behind my comments above!

--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm
#14

Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


jtedesco wrote:
Bob, I stand behind my comments above!


I would never expect otherwise ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif) you are a man of conviction and I respect that.

I also stand by my comments, and my references.

I can't help but wonder how you figure a meter that is used by the utility to send the customer a bill is not 'metering'.

But that's what makes this a wonderful country and a great forum, we are free to express our opinions. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)

Bob

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
#15

Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe T,


Just so happens on several occasions I have opened some of those cans and what I found in those cases really astounded me.

I remember one, where the second can was providing off peak power to the water heater, supposedly at a reduced rate. I will say it was reduced, like free. Apparently, the guy took off the cover and knobbed the taped the wires together with some split bolt connectors. Nothing like free electricity. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif) Of course I advised everyone, including the owner and agents that was they were stealing electricity and it should be fixed before they got into "real" hot water.

The other was pretty much the same, two meter cans, one providing off peak power to a water heater. Only the guy that installed this one made a real big boo boo, he double lugged the load side on the first can to the line side of the second can. Nothing like paying for power twice. Upon notification, the owners reported the thought their electric bill was higher than it used to be. Apparently, this was only done a few months before I found it and once I told them, they disclosed their bill was higher now than it was before. Didn't make much sense to them, it was supposed to reduce their electric bill, not increase it. Now they know why! ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Here in PA, the meter can and panel must have an inspection label attached before the power company will put power to the system. If those guys are putting stickers on these and saying they are ok, I would need to supporting evidence that their allowing these installations is either illegal or unsafe. Certainly you could understand losing the UL listing on those lugs would justify not allowing this installation.

Ultimately, it would come down to the AHJ, if they say it is ok, I can't do much about it other than report it has the potential to cause problems since it would lose the UL listings. That really only benefits the insurance company though, not the owner. At that point the insurance companies pretty much wash their hands of it, claiming the owners need to contact the electrical contractor to make a claim to their insurance company, after their house burns down.

Pretty much sucks any way you look at it!

--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

#16

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe:


Quote:
Pretty much sucks any way you look at it!


![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) You said it and with your experiences we can agree that there are conditions that make it difficult to consider this as an acceptable installation! Some electricians will suggest anything and hope that they are correct.

Experience in the field is the best teacher and some of the new kids on the block have lots to learn about inspection procedures for sure!

That's too bad!



--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm
#17

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


After I saw my first Illsco Kupletap I was wondering why anyone paid for electricity. It was certaiinly integrity that keeps us honest because stealing was going to be real easy.


Sign me "Tapless in Estero" ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

#18

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


icon_eek.gif


Only an inexperienced and unqualified person with little knowledge of wiring and rules as per NEC 90.7 would try to add a line side tap to the lugs on the top of this meter socket enclosure --- let's face it there just isn't enough room no matter how you look at it! It is a violation and should not be permitted!





--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

#19

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


The Kupletap really only needs an inch or so of conductor, it is insulation piercing and totally insulated. You don’t have to be all that experienced or qualified to tighten the bolt that completes the connection.

#20

Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


jtedesco wrote:
Some electricians will suggest anything and hope that they are correct.

Experience in the field is the best teacher and some of the new kids on the block have lots to learn about inspection procedures for sure!

That's too bad!

![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)

Joe you can take your veiled insults and stuff them where the sun don't shine.

I have 23 years in the field working with the tools and getting inspected, I am no 'new kid on the block'.

When was the last time you made a living installing electric work and getting inspections from dozens of different towns?

The fact is not all AHJs look at things the same way.

You know the address of this installation and you have a phone, if it is that bad why not call the inspector or the power company and discuss your concerns with them?

Is it because they would tell you to mind your own business?

Bob

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN