Disconnect location

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Bob B wrote:
I do say sub panel all the time but you will not and probably never will see "sub panel" in the NEC.


So I went looking (having the NEC on CD rom helps) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

NEC 2002 wrote:
Exhibits 250.41 and 250.42 show examples of installations. In Exhibit 250.41, note that the metal raceway is grounded in the usual manner, by attachment to the grounded service enclosure, satisfying the concern mentioned in the fine print note. In Exhibit 250.42, note that 408.20, Exception, permits the isolated equipment grounding conductor (which is required to be insulated) to pass through the subpanel.


Exhibit 250.42 An installation in which the insulated equipment grounding conductor is allowed to pass through the subpanel without connecting to the grounding bus to terminate at the service grounding bus.

Equipment grounding requirements are contained in 680.6, 680.21(A)(1), 680.23(F), and 680.25(B). These requirements specify that equipment grounding conductors be connected to non?current-carrying metal parts of the specified equipment. These equipment grounding conductors are required to be run with the circuit conductors in rigid metal conduit, intermediate conduit, listed MC cable (for motors only), or rigid nonmetallic conduit (electrical metallic tubing is permitted in or on buildings, and electrical nonmetallic tubing is permitted inside buildings), and they must be terminated at the grounding terminal bus of the service panelboard, the source of the separately derived system, or the subpanel. This equipment grounding conductor provides a path of low impedance that limits the voltage to ground and facilitates operation of the circuit overcurrent protective device(s). The equipment grounding conductor is required to be an insulated copper conductor not smaller than 12 AWG.



You were close Bob, the term is only used 3 times in the whole NEC

Regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Gerry, I also have the CD-ROM. icon_lol.gif


There are no references to subpanel in the code.

The three references you found are from the handbook commentary which is not code. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

Try your search again limiting it to the 2002 code not the 2002 code and commentary.

Everyone uses the term subpanel even the people that write the NEC handbook, the only people that do not use the terms (and I bet they do unofficially ) are the code making panels.

There is a good reason for this, a panel that is not the service equipment is wired just like any other load side equipment.

Bob


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi to all,


OK Bob you got me I forgot to limmit the search ![icon_redface.gif](upload://f7DX2EWhmUfsDapWaYT3oJHMCj1.gif) ![icon_redface.gif](upload://f7DX2EWhmUfsDapWaYT3oJHMCj1.gif)

Regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



But Gerry watch me.


Subpanel.


I will still use that term, we all know what it means. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

Take Care, Bob


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Bob


"There are no references to subpanel in the code."

There is but I am too lazy, or for a price I will find them, to find them.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Mike Parks wrote:
Bob

"There are no references to subpanel in the code."

There is but I am too lazy, or for a price I will find them, to find them.


Mike I have to ask, do you think the CD-ROM lies?

If subpanel was in there it would show up on a search.

Bob


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Mike P,


FPN's are not part of the code!

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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rmoore wrote:
In that situation (which is the same as Russel's photo) the bus-bar, and therefore the "same-sized" feeders lugged to it, are being protected on the load side by the main service disconnect. The next panel would still be regarded as a "sub" panel and wouldn't need a main breaker, even though I agree that it's a good idea.


That other panel could very well be a "main" panel as well as a "sub" panel. To be safe, it is a "panel".

Quote:
BTW...I've taken to putting the "sub" in quotes to avoid Jerry's wrath. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif) He is correct that there is no such beast as a sub-panel in the NEC, just service equipment and panelboards. But...as even Code-Check does use the term sub-panel, I see no harm in using it here for clarification. The quotes are my compromise.


I have no wrath over the use of the term "sub panel", any more than I do "main panel". What I try to get across to everyone (apparently unsuccessfully so far) is that when you try to think of "Lets' see, does the neutral get connected to ground in this panel? Hmmmm ... Is this a *sub panel* or a *main panel*?", you should really be thinking "Is this the service equipment with the MAIN DISCONNECT in it?"

Forget "sub panel" and "main panel" when looking at them for that reason, instead, think "Is this THE SERVICE EQUIPMENT with the main disconnect?"

Your answer, either Yes, or No, will then tell you whether or not the neutral should be bonded to ground in that enclosure. "Yes" is "yes" and "No" is "no".


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Bob Badger wrote:
But Gerry watch me.

Subpanel.


I will still use that term, we all know what it means. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

Take Care, Bob


Ditto.

Sub panel.

Sub-fed panel.

Subpanel.

Sub-panel.

I've used each of them to describe an appropriate panel.

JUST NOT when when referring to (or thinking about) where the neutral is tied to ground.

I think Sub-fed panel is most appropriate.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Joe


FPN's are part of the code.

90.5 in my 1996.

And yes Bob I have seen it and I do believe the CD lies.

One of these days I will find it again and will at that time post the reference.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: rray
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CD’s can lie simply because it typically are hourly employees who do the indexing, typing, cross-referencing, etc.


![icon_twisted.gif](upload://xjO326gspdTNE5QS3UTl0a0Rtvy.gif)


--
Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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jpeck wrote:
... you should really be thinking "Is this the service equipment with the MAIN DISCONNECT in it?"

Very true ... because that is where the neutral-ground connection goes ... AND ONLY THERE. It has to do with where the service disconnect is, and nothing to do with panels. Many get tripped up on that.

jpeck wrote:
Forget "sub panel" and "main panel" when looking at them for that reason

I don't agree. Just like I dont agree with an HI calling a "neutral" the more correct term "grounded conductor". Many HI's, and more importantly clients/owners, may understand the more common/trade terms like "sub-panel", "main panel", "neural", etc ... but may not follow the more correct terms.

Mike Parks wrote:
"There are no references to subpanel in the code." ... There is but I am too lazy, or for a price I will find them, to find them.

I think you and the Captain are off on that one ... proposed 2005 NEC doesn't have it either ... ![icon_exclaim.gif](upload://kW92MliyHA8ygoXI0UsgtBSn4ZO.gif)

Joe ... FPN's are part of the code, just not enforceable ...

Just my 2-nickles


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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roconnor wrote:
jpeck wrote:
Forget "sub panel" and "main panel" when looking at them for that reason

I don't agree. Just like I dont agree with an HI calling a "neutral" the more correct term "grounded conductor". Many HI's, and more importantly clients/owners, may understand the more common/trade terms like "sub-panel", "main panel", "neural", etc ... but may not follow the more correct terms.


Even if calling them "sub panel" and "main panel" are part of the problem on HIs not being able to get this straight?

I agree with the "neutral" in most cases, especially with clients, but when talking to other professionals, like on this forum, we should be able to converse in proper terms so there is no confusion. In many cases, common terms are fully understood, in other cases, common terms could have a dual, or even opposite, meaning.

This is, after, a "professional forum for HIs", right? Sure, others can join in, but the HIs should be "professional".


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: rray
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I think just the opposite. I hear complaints all the time about how home inspectors talk down to buyers. Therefore, I practice layperson speak, everywhere I go, in front of my Clients, with Realtors, and here. That way I can never be accused of talking down to anyone.


![icon_twisted.gif](upload://xjO326gspdTNE5QS3UTl0a0Rtvy.gif)


--
Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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. And I think that is the point to drive home as I noted … not the terminology.


And I think NFPA and the code terminology has a lot to do with peoples confusion ... and until they clean up their terminology act I will generally stick with the trade names for things unless there is a real good reason not to. No reason to mix and match ... even on a professional level. And even the NEC handbook uses the term "subpanel" ... is that an unprofessional document then?

[I will leave you all on this post with that thought ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif) ]


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Thought it was clear as glass until the other day…


Inspected a co-op, which was actually a converted apartment.

No FPE Panel, thank God, but saw something else...

Separate electric meters. Diconnects at pans. No Disconnects in panels (sub panels), in individual units.

No floating neutrals.

AJH sticker on the panel, from 1965.

Told the client that, as far as I could tell, floating neutrals were a requirement. Question from the seller was "would you like to inspect the other unit I own?" I did. Same condition...

Then the question... "So how could this be approved if it's so wrong?"

Yes... the meter pan was in the basement, in a locked room. Yes there was a disconnect at the meter pan. Yes, the unit's panel was a subpanel. No, there was no disconnect. Yes, there were more than 6 breakers in the panel.

So, what's a mother to do? ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jfarsetta wrote:
Inspected a co-op, which was actually a converted apartment ... Separate electric meters. Diconnects at pans. No Disconnects in panels (sub panels), in individual units.

It may not be wrong. There should be a main feeder coming into the building, with a main disconnect (or disconnects ... up to six) before all the individual unit meters. For larger buildings this may be called "switch gear". That main "service equipment" should have the neutral-ground bond, and everything after that "floats". Look for the house meter if there is one, as that is generally tapped off around there.

Hope that helps our resident "Bus Driver" ... ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

(Okay, I lied ... this is my last post here. No wait ... Jerry didnt reply yet, so I am cool with what I said ... lol. And I am bailing unless Joe starts a new Topic ... or unless Bob and Mike also say I am all wet ... lol).


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Rob,


I know all that jazz...

Problem was that the AHJ sticker was on at least 2 separate panels, in 2 separate units. No floating neutrals... Yes indees, grounds and neutrals bonded in sub panels...

Yet, an AJH inspection sticker in 2 or 2 panels, which are technically incorrect. Stickers dates back to '65, as far as I can tell by the writing on them.


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jfarsetta wrote:
Problem was that the AHJ sticker was on at least 2 separate panels, in 2 separate units. No floating neutrals... Yes indees, grounds and neutrals bonded in sub panels...

Just because there is a sticker doesn't mean it right. Have a local licensed professional check it out, and afterwards pick his brain as to how this could be "approved" ... ahem ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I’ll tell you how… $$$$$$$$ icon_wink.gif


Oh, I knew the answer. It's the age-old argument you'll get from the realtor or the seller. Sometimes, you'll get it from your client, who thinks they are a know-it-all.

When I think of a know it all, I see that cartoon from TV, where Bullwinkle is Mr. Know It All, and wearing a dunce cap...

God, I laugh at that visual...


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."