Do you need to GFCI a sump pump

Originally Posted By: bob haller
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



My wife kept me busy all day satrurday:( and with the open house sunday I didnt get to it. In all honesty though the pump as installed probably isnt a hazard. Its inside a plastic sump with the top bolted down. It would take a LOT of effort to get shocked off it, even in a worse case where it somehow wasnt grounded. whichj it definetely is.


the inspector said it HAD to be grounded by code.... anytime water and electric are together. I mentioned the washer and dryer, he said that was a special case.

Thanks for confirming thats not required... in this case a pump failure wouldnt create a flood but some seeping floor moisture. at least for previous years, this one were 14.5 inches over normal thats a lot of water..


Originally Posted By: John M Borchers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



GFCI and Motors not a good idea. Denis is exactly right!


Motors have what they call "Eddy currents". These currents are the currents that escape from the motor coils to the grounded housing of a motor. It causes GFCI recepticles and breakers to trip when the leakage is above the threshold 4-6mA. It is a frequent nuisance tripping most noticable with larger motors (more leakage, bigger motor). It also normally happens when a motor starts up. The coils cause a current delay when starting (the GFCI assumes the current is lost and trips)

1) I have a bandsaw in my basement that trips the GFCI (20A recepticle, 12A motor) almost every time I try to start it.

2) I have a hair clipper in the bathroom that rarely will trip the GFCI (about once in 100 starts).

It is NEVER a good idea to put vital equipment attached to a GFCI. This is the reason for the exceptions in the code.

1) Refrigerators
2) Alarms
3) Etc.

A dedicated outlet would be allowed for a refrigerator in a kitchen even if it were near the sink provided that the outlet is not easily accessible. Example. The refrigerator is adjacent to the sink. The recepticle is behind the refrigerator. However, the recepticle is within a few feet of the sink. This is allowed.


Originally Posted By: bob haller
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



bob haller wrote:
My wife kept me busy all day satrurday:( and with the open house sunday I didnt get to it. In all honesty though the pump as installed probably isnt a hazard. Its inside a plastic sump with the top bolted down. It would take a LOT of effort to get shocked off it, even in a worse case where it somehow wasnt grounded. whichj it definetely is.

the inspector said it HAD to be grounded by code.... anytime water and electric are together. I mentioned the washer and dryer, he said that was a special case.

Thanks for confirming thats not required... in this case a pump failure wouldnt create a flood but some seeping floor moisture. at least for previous years, this one were 14.5 inches over normal thats a lot of water..


Sorry I MEANT to say it had to be GFCI:(


Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



John M Borchers wrote:
GFCI and Motors not a good idea. Denis is exactly right!


Sorry John you will have to explain that to the NEC 'eddy currents' aside GFCIs are now required for commercial kitchen 120 volt 15 and 20 amp outlets.

If you look around much of this kitchen equipment is motors.

Also any construction sites that care to meet NEC and OHSA requirements have all outlets protected by GFCIs and what gets plugged in? MOTORS

John M Borchers wrote:


1) I have a bandsaw in my basement that trips the GFCI (20A recepticle, 12A motor) almost every time I try to start it.

2) I have a hair clipper in the bathroom that rarely will trip the GFCI (about once in 100 starts).


I would say these items need service.

Pool pumps run just fine and in some cases are required to be GFCI protected.

John M Borchers wrote:
It is NEVER a good idea to put vital equipment attached to a GFCI. This is the reason for the exceptions in the code.

1) Refrigerators


Again I point out there are no specific exceptions for refrigerators at your home or in a commercial kitchen.

If the outlet you chose to plug your refrigerator into happens to also serve the kitchen counter top it must be on a GFCI

In commercial kitchens any refrigerators or freezers that plug into 15 or 20 amp 120 volt outlets must be GFCI protected. NO EXCEPTIONS

John M Borchers wrote:
A dedicated outlet would be allowed for a refrigerator in a kitchen even if it were near the sink provided that the outlet is not easily accessible.


No that is not exactly true for a kitchen, there is nothing in the kitchen GFCI requirements about being dedicated or not accessible. It also has nothing to do with how close to the sink it is.

It has to do with the outlet serving the counter top surface or not.

John I say this not to be a wise guy but you should take a look at the 2002 GFCI requirements. It sounds like you are thinking of previous NEC versions. You have to remember that the GFCI requirements are always changing and you have to keep up with them. They are going to change again for 2005.

Here I include the 2002 GFCI requirements.

Quote:
210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.

(A) Dwelling Units.
All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

(1) Bathrooms

(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use

Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible.

Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8).


Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(2) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G).

(3) Outdoors

Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426.

(4) Crawl spaces ? at or below grade level

(5) Unfinished basements ? for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like

Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible.

Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8).

Exception No. 3: A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.


Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G).

(6) Kitchens ? where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces

(7) Wet bar sinks ? where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces and are located within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the wet bar sink.

(8) Boathouses

(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1), (2), and (3) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel:

(1) Bathrooms

(2) Rooftops

Exception to (2): Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied from a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426.

(3) Kitchens


A properly wired motor in good condition should not trip GFCIs eddy currents not withstanding.

The largest 120 volt motor you should be using on a 20 amp circuit is 1 HP. a 1 HP motor in good condition should not create the 5 ma leakage current needed to trip a GFCI.

Bob


Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Alright. Since this thread is starting to get code oriented, let’s go ahead and talk some code.


Mike Johnston is a member of NEC code making panel 5. He submitted a change to the 2002 NEC that would require all 125 volt, single phase, 15 and 20 amp receptacles in commercial kitchens to be GFCI protected...with no exceptions (no exceptions for refrigeration, motors, emergancy lighting,...no exceptions). For the substantiation of his proposal, he shoe codew making panel 2 (in charge of article 210, among others) some reports of fatalities in commercial kitchens. One of these was an employee who was mopping the floor of a kitchen. His shoes had absorbed the water on the floor creating a path the conductove surface below (concrete floor). He slipped on the wet floor and grabbed the first thing he could see to break his fall...the handle on the refgigerator. Well, it just so happened that the refrigerator had a fault on it that had energized the frame of the unit, and when he touched the fridge and completed the path through his heart and down to his feet, his heart went into ventricular fibrallation. He was killed almost insantly.

Now ask yourself, do you really think that GFCI's an motors and sump pumps and refrigerators really matter? If your answer is still that they "are not a good idea", I suggest you tell that this poor guys family.

So a case study on the number of dead bodies that could have been saved from GFCI protection. The fact of the matter is, the NFPA doesn't care about your cheesy sump pump when you compare it to a cold body lying on the floor.


--
Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Your commercial fridge had at least two faults to kill that guy. The first was the failure of the equipment ground, the second was the internal short. I don’t dissagree that the 3d layer of protection the GFCI might have saved the guy … assuming it was working and not jumpered out.


Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Greg Fretwell wrote:
I don't dissagree that the 3d layer of protection the GFCI might have saved the guy ... assuming it was working and not jumpered out.


How exactly do you jump a GFCI out?

On another note the service main in European homes is a GFCI so the whole house is GFCI protected.

There is a difference, that main GFCI has a 300 ma trip instead of the 5 ma trip our typical GFCIs have.

That is a necessary difference as the total leakage current of an entire house would trip a 5 ma GFCI.


Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Sorry I really meant to simply remove the GFCI and replace it with a regular breaker when the fridge tripped the circuit too many times. “Jumper out” was just a buzz word we used for any way of defeating something.


You can still meet the letter of the law by cutting the plug off and hard wiring it but that also hard wires the equipment ground and that may be the real problem in the first place. Commercial users may be the worst about fixing broken ground prongs on plugs.


Maybe the real answer is an “assured bonding” program in these commercial kitchens where all of that stainless steel is bonded along with anything else that may become energized.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



bbadger wrote:
What if the freezer is not there?

Good question and if you get an NEC answer let me know. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

If you don't have the appliances required by the Exceptions in 210.8(A), then you dont meet those Exceptions, and GFCI receptacles would be required in the basement/garage areas ...


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Greg Fretwell wrote:

You can still meet the letter of the law by cutting the plug off and hard wiring it but that also hard wires the equipment ground and that may be the real problem in the first place.


How do you satisfy this?

Quote:

(A) Uses. Flexible cords and cables shall be used only for the following:
(1) Pendants
(2) Wiring of luminaires (fixtures)
(3) Connection of portable lamps, portable and mobile signs, or appliances
(4) Elevator cables
(5) Wiring of cranes and hoists
(6) Connection of utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange
(7) Prevention of the transmission of noise or vibration
(![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance and repair, and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connection
(9) Data processing cables as permitted by 645.5
(10) Connection of moving parts
(11) Temporary wiring as permitted in 527.4(B) and 527.4(C)
(B] Attachment Plugs. Where used as permitted in 400.7(A)(3), (A)(6), and (A)(![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif), each flexible cord shall be equipped with an attachment plug and shall be energized from a receptacle outlet.



--
Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Cut the cord off at the Fridge end and use a flex whip


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Greg Fretwell wrote:
Cut the cord off at the Fridge end and use a flex whip


![eusa_naughty.gif](upload://nYl3dmRmAIH81yCdH9V96akYnNa.gif) If that was done the product listing would become void.

Quote:
See 90.7 Examination of Equipment for Safety.


Quote:
It is the intent of this Code that factory-installed internal wiring or the construction of equipment need not be inspected at the time of installation of the equipment, except to detect alterations or damage, if the equipment has been listed by a qualified electrical testing laboratory that is recognized as having the facilities described in the preceding paragraph and that requires suitability for installation in accordance with this Code.

FPN No. 1: See requirements in 110.3.

FPN No. 2: Listed is defined in Article 100.

FPN No. 3: Annex A contains an informative list of product safety standards for electrical equipment.





--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: bob haller
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



its only a matter of time till every outlet will be GFCI protected. They are actually pretty reliable and not expensive.


Commercial buildings tend to have bad wiring. Do you know homes require a outlet for every 6 feet of wall.

Commercial buildings have bno such requirements and schiools where I spend so much time tend to have lots of overworked extension cords... because of few outlets.


Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



bob haller wrote:
Do you know homes require a outlet for every 6 feet of wall.


Um...yes. Thanks ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)


--
Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: bob haller
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Err I figured you knew that but was using it for comparison purposes to commercial buildings.


Have seen and reported outlet boxes falling apart, not fuixed by my next visit 6 monrths later:(


Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Ryan


"Do you know homes require a outlet for every 6 feet of wall."

How about for every 2' of wall. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif) ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

Yes (it is in the code), I mean every 2' of wall needs an outlet.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: bob haller
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



2 feet? please tell me more. the middle inspector specificaly mentioned the 6 foot rule.


2 foot would apply if thats all the wall is in length, like between 2 doors?


Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



bob haller wrote:
Do you know homes require a outlet for every 6 feet of wall.


Ah... you might mean 12 feet.


Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



bob haller wrote:
2 feet? please tell me more.


Mike is having fun, kitchen counter outlets must be no more than 48" apart.

Bob, Ryan is a very knowledgeable city inspector, he also teaches code classes. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)

I would not be surprised if Ryan ends up helping to write codes in the future. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)


Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Bob


"Mike is having fun"

No I mean 'wall' space. ![icon_exclaim.gif](upload://kW92MliyHA8ygoXI0UsgtBSn4ZO.gif) 250.52(A)(2)(1)

Mike P.