GFCI for Sump Pump

Originally Posted By: mlong
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I’d like to get some second opinions.


Is it required and/or recommended to have a basement sump pump on a GFCI?


--
Mark Long
Peace of Mind Home Inspections
http://www.pomhi.net

Originally Posted By: rharrington
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Mark,


I'm new at this and won't feel bad if others disagree with me. Only way to learn is throw my opinion out there.

This is my virgin advice on the boards. (be nice).

No GFCI on the sump pump. It should be a dedicated circuit and I wouldn't want the GFCI to kick off on a start of the sump and then the sump is non functional. If there is a short or problem in the circuit then the breaker would kick off.

Rick


--
Rick A. Harrington
Central Ohio Home Inspections
www.patchhomeinspections.com

Originally Posted By: lkage
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Here’s a list of dates GFCI requirements were established:


The exception for sump pumps or other dedicated equipment in crawlspaces, established in 1990 was removed in 1999. I believe this would include basements.

DATES GFCI REQUIRMENTS WERE ESTABLISHED:
1971 Receptacles within 15 feet of pool walls
1971 All equipment used with storable swimming pools
1973 All outdoor receptacles
1974 Construction Sites
1975 Bathrooms, 120-volt pool lights, and fountain equipment
1978 Garages, spas, and hydromassage tubs
1978 Outdoor receptacles above 6ft.6in. grade access exempted
1984 Replacement of non-grounding receptacles with no grounding conductor allowed
1984 Pool cover motors
1984 Distance of GFCI protection extended to 20 feet from pool walls
1987 Unfinished basements
1987 Kitchen countertop receptacles within 6 feet of sink
1987 Boathouses
1990 Crawlspaces (with exception for sump pumps or other dedicated equip.)
1993 Wet bar countertops within 6 feet of sink
1993 Any receptacle replaced in an area presently requiring GFCI
1996 All kitchen counters ? not just those within 6 feet of sink
1996 All exterior receptacles except dedicated de-icing tape receptacle
1996 Unfinished accessory buildings at or below grade
1999 Exemption for dedicated equipment in crawlspace removed


--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted By: mlong
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lkage wrote:
Here's a list of dates GFCI requirements were established:

The exception for sump pumps or other dedicated equipment in crawlspaces, established in 1990 was removed in 1999. I believe this would include basements.

DATES GFCI REQUIRMENTS WERE ESTABLISHED:
1990 Crawlspaces (with exception for sump pumps or other dedicated equip.)
1999 Exemption for dedicated equipment in crawlspace removed


Then what you're saying is, that a GFCI is required for a sump pump?


--
Mark Long
Peace of Mind Home Inspections
http://www.pomhi.net

Originally Posted By: rcooke
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I do not have GFCI on my sump pump and do not intend to put one on . If I was going to have a GFCI I would make sure it was not the standard GFCI go for the one that needs a larger leakage to dump. I also put in as a back up a water powered sump pump ( I am on town water ) from Home depot . In Canada cost about $70:00 Can (55;00 US). Had a power failure and the water powered saved the day great reliable and quiet .


Roy Cooke sr, …A retired Sparky


Originally Posted By: jmurphy1
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Mark: I think there are several places where you don’t want GFCI. One is sump pump and I think another is with an appliance like a refrigerator or freezer. I’m not an expert on this - these are just things I’ve heard.


If I'm wrong I'm sure I'll hear from some of the vocal members who don't like a realtor talking about inspection issues.


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Mark,


GFCI protection would be required for receptacles at, or below grade. If the receptacle for that sump pump was at or below grade (most likely) GFCI protection would be required. One work around for this would be in the dedicated receptacle part, if the sump pump was on a dedicated circuit which utilized a single receptacle, it would not be required.

How was that for an answer?


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

Originally Posted By: lkage
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



mlong wrote:
lkage wrote:
Here's a list of dates GFCI requirements were established:

The exception for sump pumps or other dedicated equipment in crawlspaces, established in 1990 was removed in 1999. I believe this would include basements.

DATES GFCI REQUIREMENTS WERE ESTABLISHED:
1990 Crawlspaces (with exception for sump pumps or other dedicated equip.)
1999 Exemption for dedicated equipment in crawlspace removed


Then what you're saying is, that a GFCI is required for a sump pump?



Mark, yes, I believe that is how it reads.


--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted By: mlong
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jmyers wrote:
Mark,

GFCI protection would be required for receptacles at, or below grade. If the receptacle for that sump pump was at or below grade (most likely) GFCI protection would be required. One work around for this would be in the dedicated receptacle part, if the sump pump was on a dedicated circuit which utilized a single receptacle, it would not be required.

How was that for an answer?


That sounds like a good answer, and it's basiclly what an electrician told me at a house that I had inspected, but it seems to contradict what Larry Kage is saying. I'm embarrassed to say, I don't have my own copy of the NEC yet, but it's on my short list of things to get. I've just been using the Code Check booklets and they aren't detailed enought to address this.


--
Mark Long
Peace of Mind Home Inspections
http://www.pomhi.net

Originally Posted By: jpope
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This has been hashed on many occasions on many forums. The end result is that sump pumps aren’t addressed speciffically.


The requirement is based on the location of the receptacle that is used to supply power to the pump.


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: mlong
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jpope wrote:
This has been hashed on many occasions on many forums. The end result is that sump pumps aren't addressed speciffically.

The requirement is based on the location of the receptacle that is used to supply power to the pump.


Thanks, Jeff. The reason this came up for me, is that it is written into the template of Report Host, the reporting system I use, suggesting that sump pumps should be on a GFCI. Recently an electrician called me to task on it, so I wanted to get some clarification.

I'll probably have to take this up with the Report Host guys, as well.


--
Mark Long
Peace of Mind Home Inspections
http://www.pomhi.net

Originally Posted By: jjackson
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Mark


my son bought a house 2 years ago and before he moved in, they installed a sump pump. It has no GFCI. I do see it on my ReportHost template, too.



jj

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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The only reason a sump pump would trip a GFCI is if it had a ground fault. I suppose it would run quite a while with this fault but when it finally did quit you are really entering the dead zone. Now you are in a panic because the house is flooding and you have a pump with a fault to ground. One careless action and you are wet, holding a hot motor case.


Originally Posted By: lkage
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Greg Fretwell wrote:
The only reason a sump pump would trip a GFCI is if it had a ground fault. I suppose it would run quite a while with this fault but when it finally did quit you are really entering the dead zone. Now you are in a panic because the house is flooding and you have a pump with a fault to ground. One careless action and you are wet, holding a hot motor case.


Enhanced safety... I'd call it out for that reason alone. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Quote:
The requirement is based on the location of the receptacle that is used to supply power to the pump.


Well Jeff, I don't know much but would'nt you think that would cover most, if not all, sump pumps. After all, when is the last time you seen a sump pump on the roof, or in the dining room? ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

Originally Posted By: tgettier
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If it is a dedicated circuit (The only appliance on it using a “single receptacle” not a duplex receptacle) then you do not and should not use a GFCI. The biggest cause of GFCI’s tripping is lightning storms which is when you would be the most apt. to need a pump.


Originally Posted By: rcooke
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Greg Fretwell wrote:
The only reason a sump pump would trip a GFCI is if it had a ground fault. I suppose it would run quite a while with this fault but when it finally did quit you are really entering the dead zone. Now you are in a panic because the house is flooding and you have a pump with a fault to ground. One careless action and you are wet, holding a hot motor case.

Sorry Greg are you an electrician or just going from what you have been told . Many things can cause a GFCI to dump A spike coming down the line from any where can cause them to dump . It can be from a motor burning out down the street a lightning strike many miles away .the body shop around the corner with a welder. I am a retired Sparky and will not have my Freezer fridge or sump pump on a GFCI sorry I will take the chance of a grnd fault in the pump over the safety of a GFCI . My opinion only others may differ . Roy Cooke sr Royshominspection.com


Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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There are lots of myths and urban legends about what will trip a GFCI but 99.999% of the time it is caused by a ground fault. If you retired a while ago you may still remember the old technology GFCIs that did have problems but the technology has evolved.


I still believe a lot of those old anecdotes had more to do with defective equipment that went unnoticed until the GFCI was installed. The fact that millions of pool, fountain and spa pumps run fine on GFCIs does refute the idea that there is something in a pump that trips one. Plug connected commercial refrigeration is now required to be on GFCI too.


You can do anything you like with your own life but you have a responsibility to accurately advise your clients when you deal with theirs.


Originally Posted By: jpope
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jmyers wrote:
Well Jeff, I don't know much but would'nt you think that would cover most, if not all, sump pumps. After all, when is the last time you seen a sump pump on the roof, or in the dining room? ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


I knew I could count on JM to try and throw logic into the equation.

The reality is, most conditions would warrant the receptacle supplying power to the sump pump to be GFCI protected. I still stand on my statement that sump pumps are not specifically addressed by the NEC as requiring or not-requiring GFCI protection.

Would you place a GFCI breaker in the panel if you were to "hard-wire" the sump pump? Why or why not?


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Awww Jeff…


I was not disagreeing with you, just razzing you! ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz