…no
I think the Code should be used in conjunction with “common sense”… I.E. A furnace should not be allowed in a bedroom, or no room should be used for sleeping purposes that does not have windows or egress… The “minimum” safety code standards should be tested…
My vote is no in the ICC requirement for HI’s. There is no expectation from clients that a code compliance inspection is being performed as part of the home inspection, and if such expectation is present, a good HI contract should be specifically excluding code compliance inspection. Code compliance is well beyond the NACHI SOP.
If the question is “Is it a good idea for HI’s to be knowledgeable about ICC requirements?” I would say YES, as there is a benefit to knowing code as it relates to potential defects found in the home, and it may set you apart from your competition if your are ICC qualified. But I believe it should be voluntary.
Something more important is than ICC and building codes is local Min, housing standards because they include new and old homes regardless of code.
Yes, they are MIN but if not met the local gov can pull the CO
Get up on the learning curve on these standards – They have teeth
Who really gives a darn if there is no GFCI in the garage or the kitchen 15 feet away from the sink in a 30 year home that you really do not know when it was really built or updated???
This is not a code issue if you want to put it in your report as a recommendation.
Just remember that your client is contracting you to inspect a home – not make recommendations
I just say that GFCIs are not there – same with AFCIs, cracks in the sidewalk that might be a trip problem, and rats in the refrig. next to the beer. (Home not zoned for ag use — same problem with growing plants in the large basement and bedrooms and living room and dinning room etc.)
Maybe the buyer is buying the property to expand his or her “grow house” holdings and wants us to check out its structure, electrical - etc.
I think our SOP will allow us to do same and we might be in trouble if we call 911.
Sort of would like a good NACHI lawyer to give some comments on this one
----- News from our area 18 people arrested in "grow house operation in Poke Co Fl ---- I inspected 3 of the homes involved before sale
rlb
Richard,
Doing home inspections for clients, is more than just a real estate inspection…Its about protecting lives! If you are not recommending GFCI’s in locations in let’s say kitchen counters, hydro spas, bathrooms, garages, etc. and somone gets killed…Mr. Attorney may come knockin’ on your door someday saying it was your fault… It happens! We can’t save the world or everyone but we should do our “due diligence” during every inspection.
As for ICC tests… I agree, ICC tests should not be for Home Inspectors, since the code mainly pertains to “NEW CONSTRUCTION” anyways… but we should partially know the latest standards and recommend them in every home we do… and let the client decide what they want to do…
Just my thoughts! I love a good forum…
Richard,
No need to go to Minnesota, the ICC has produced the International Existing Building Code.
Justin
Not a problem if you feel that you should recommend something OK
I just report if GFCI is there or not – same with AFCI for bedrooms - and what about 25 watt light bulb in hall light above stairs - no carbon monoxide alarms - manual garage door spring too lose (no code) - fish pond in back yard that should be called a swimming pool with a fence -
The list goes on and on – If code (specific ICC) becomes the rule then OK but right now it is NOT
I do not think that all homes will ever be code
By the way our local Min Housing Code states that ALL homes must have a hard wired FIRE and SMOKE alarm with battery backup plus some other technical specs
As a HI I do report a Yes or No on the above – I do not say that it is “code” or recommended - or not legal etc
Am I wrong???
I feel that we are inspecting and reporting not recommending but that is just me
I am an inspector not a recommend-er or an estimator of $ to correct an issue
I do not recommend to a client as to if he or she should buy a property
Just report the facts
I am not here to educate in English - Spanish - French - etc.
I do have a copy of my contract in Spanish if I think it is needed - Not my report
rlb
Joe
Thank you
Do you think one should read same?? Too bad that they do not have it on line for free – but I am a cheap SOB – I believe that knowledge should not be restricted to the rich but be accessible to all at least to an online library that we can be a member of
rlb
Justin,
An inspector here in NY was sued by the SELLER (co-joined by the Broker) and LOST.
The crux of the lawsuit revolved around the fact that this particular home was on the market for over a year, and the inspection performed was a result of the one and only rear offer that came in on the home during that period.
The inspector spouted “code” issues, including alleged defficiencies and al sorts of references to the current codes (plumbing, electrical, structural).
Problem was that his client saw all this as insurmountable, and walked from the deal.
Fine you say? Not so.
The seller hired a PE, who also performed an inspection on the dwelling. In the PEs opinion, the home was fine, and all codes in place during the time of initial construction still held.
This PE inspection was followed up by a municipal inspection. Te muni inspector reviewed the HIs report, and commented in all code related areas.
These two gentlemen were called as expert witnesses at trial. The long and short of it was the opinion that only those codes in place at the time the home was built mattered. If an upgrade was performed (say the installation of a GFCI), and that component was defective, then that would be legitimate to note, but only the AHJ can make the determination as to what is code complant and what is not.
The jury found the AHJ’s testimony, along with that of the PE, to be more than credible.
They found in favor od the Seller, and the judgement against the HI was in the tens of thousands of dollars, which included the value of the tax bill for the coming year, along with advertising costs, and broker commission fees that were lost.
As to further liability, you need to understand the ramifications within your state of having SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE.
Joe
Very sad for probably a very good HI – but this is how it goes
I do not think that the client tried to minimize their losses and that all the losses were because of the HI quoting code. Sounds like a bad lawyer to me
The HI probably had a good insurance company that was ready to write the check
rlb
The point here is code interpretation is up to the AJH. We are not the AHJ.
Using portions of the ICC to augment your knowledge is terriffic. It’s the APPLICATION of that knowledge which comes into question.
That’s where saavy, and superior communication skills come into place.
And, no, the inspector was way out of bounds, here.
I agree. Learning the ICC in order to more readily identify defects and to report on them is a good thing. Touting ICC Certification or citing code in a report is not a good thing.
Joe
Good eve
I hate to see someone get it in the shorts when he probably reported fact. With a PE and the AJH against you - one has a problem
No one has said if the code violations were worth reporting or not.
I personally think that code should not be part of the HI background advanced or otherwise, but if one does go the code route and is correct the local AJH should not be able to over rule and a PE brought in by the seller stating that everything is OK does not address the fact that there was a code issue or not. Yes, we know that a code issue that was not present at time of construction does not require corrective action but one can bring it up.
Good example would be bedroom widow size today must be large enough for proper egress in case of a fire as well as large enough to let a fire person in with an air pack. An old house might not have had this requirement but I see no problem telling my client that in a new home the code would require a larger window
I can’t say if the HI did a good job for his client or not but it is crap to go after the HI if his client backs out of the deal. Esp if he was correct
I really have a problem with someone getting hit for big $$ for a report to a client that got to the “other side” and got used against the HI
Joe and anyone else out there — should HI’s by law be required to have some ICC and or code background?
rlb
Just to help clear up this issue, we all use codes every day when inspecting, we just don’t write them up as code violations.
Did you ever…
- Note in your report the lack of GFCI’s
- Write in a report about erosion along a foundation
- Noted, missing outlets on a counter
- Listed the improper pitch of a flue pipe.
Well whether you realize it or not, you were using codes, you just weren’t citing them chapter & verse.
Those of us who do use building codes citing them chapter & verse mostly do it only when performing New Construction, Warranty and Commercial inspections.
So… I agree ICC should not be a requirement for general home inspectors, but for those among us who want to broaden their market and perform those types of inspections where being able to use the building codes appropriately matters, then ICC Certification is one way in which you can prove to your clients your commitment.
I like many other inspectors believe the future of home inspection is moving away from the association based SoP model to more of an ASTM cafeteria based model which will allow inspectors to tailor their inspections to address the conditions of the market as opposed to being locked into a one size fits all reporting model.
Very soon we all could be performing more work for insurance companies, banks and other government or quasi-government organizations then we currently do for buyers, and for larger profits too. I believe that ICC testing & training will be employed as one of the ways those organizations will use to judge our skill level.
Joe Burkeson
Jesus Christ. Is it requisite for home inspectors with varied opinions to turn into instant as s holes?
From the best I can tell, this thread began with the question of IIC certification. I’d like to offer a few thoughts.
I am ICC certified in Electrical and Building. I certainly plan on gathering all other ICC certifications that I find attainable. I believe the ICC certification is the one that most qualifies me to step into a situation and say “I am an Inspector”. Certainly, we are generalists in our approach to HI. However, whether or not we say it- if we are not experts, we’d better at least feel very qualified in all or most housing related topics.
ICC is intended to eliminate duplicate efforts by individual states by providing a uniform code. Secondly, by certifying those who have become proficient in understanding and interpreting the literal and intentional scope of the code.
There is strong national pressure for all states to adopt ICC, which I believe will happen eventually. Remember, ICC intends to create a uniform international code. NOT uniform international inspectors.
In a climate racked with increasing competitiveness and strife between associations, societies, foundations, clubs and cliques. ICC stands out as the one and only completely independent certification provider. With exception to the publications, they have no product to sell. You do not have to be a member to be certified, nor do you have to be certified to be a member. And hey, it’s being embraced by most of the states. ICC is not only for new construction, but includes the International Existing Building Code and the International Property Maintenance Code.
Insofar as liability is concerned- we are liable the moment we hang out our shingle. Lawyers will point out the fact that you are not an expert, just as viciously as pointing out that you ARE. The question will more often be whether or not you should have discovered a defect during an inspection. I think it is, and should be understood, that if a defect is placed in your lap, as an inspector (expert or not) you should at least be able to identify it as a defect and feel confident in doing so.
John…
I dont consider myself an instant a$$hole. Do you? Your post starts out as inflamatory. I’m sorry you disagree, bit who died and made your opinion count over the rest?
Try coming to a litigious state, such as NY. Get your a$$ handed to you in court. If you have what is deemed to be special knowledge, you could be in for a very hard time.
An ICC certification is special knowledge, and no, your opinion does not count unless you are the AHJ. When pointing out a defect, you needd to bring other factors into the mix, besides your interpretation of Code related issues. And, yes, you can be sued by the Department of Education for providing engineering services, if you state that a system is under, or over designed, or if the design is faulty. That is reserved for the Licensed professional Engineer.
So, before you spout more rhetoric, keep in mind that rules vary from state to state, county to county, and town to town. One size does not fit all. As to electrical, NY State is still on 1999’s code. NY City has adopted its own code. Both are adopted and sanctioned by the Depart of State. You want to go up against either? You’ll lose.
So answer me…
Is a kitchen, built in 1965, absent of GFCI protection at the kitchen counter areas, something you call out as a defect?
How about a home built in 1990, with GFCIs at the counter only within 4’ of the sink?
Or a deck built in 1988 without flashing between the ledger and dwelling.
How about the deck built of pressure-treated lumber, with CO, built in 1975, where joist hangars arent used?
What of the home built in 2005, that has no arc-fault protection installed in the electrical panel, for circuits serving the bedrooms?
This discussion is real. it is quite relevent. I take away something worth thinking about from most of the posts. I find better ways to apply code, without stating them. There are no absolutes.
You believe the ICC is the only legitimate certification, based on your comments. I happen to disagree. It’s my opinion.
You really need to research some case law. You’d be surprised at what you may find. You make not like it.
I agree with JF and JB that knowing residential codes can help an inspector identify certain “defects”. **But code inspections and home inspections are two completely different animals. **My background also includes being a chief building inspector with a local municipality for a while, and I can say without any doubt that knowing codes and having ICC certifications by itself does not qualify one to be a home inspector.
In fact in NY, and many other states, there are completely different training/certification requirements for home inspectors and code enforcement officials (I have both, and NY’s CEO training is highly respected in the industry) … and they are NOT interchangeable. You can know codes like the IRC cover to cover and not be an effective home inspector.
Sure, knowing residential codes can help identify things like inadequate grading or siding clearances, incorrect crawl space venting, unsafe railings and receptacles, substandard equipment vent connectors, unprotected or inadequately supported piping and wiring, and many other installation related defects or recommended safety improvements (NOT code violations). And I highy recommend that HI’s have at least a working knowledge of basic IRC provisions and carry “CodeCheck” with them on inspections.
BUT, knowing codes will NOT help identify many of the more significant defects and high liability areas (according to studies by FREA and SPREI) related to a home inspection … such as settling foundations, deteriorated sills/framing, leaking basements, deteriorated/leaking roofs, deteriorated mechanical equipment, old PB piping prone to major leaks [P.S. see attached photo for an example result that is NOT covered by codes], very hazardous “old technology” solid aluminum wiring (not all AL wiring, and newer solid AL wires are actually permited by code with the correct devices), and many other performance based defects NOT covered by building codes.
JMO & 2-nickels … 
A LOT of good comments in here.
I hold 12 ICC certs, but see a very limited application for code in performing CONDITION reports for existing house inventory. Every code has a grandfathering section (AHJ’s call) in the administrative provisions.
Where does code tell me how much a foundation can tilt or when a roof, water heater or air conditioner is worn-out?
Russell in Texas
Rob and Russel,
Pinpoint accuracy…
Joe-
As much as you are a fixture in this forum, I would think that you would understand my opening “inflammatory” sentence as a frustrated utterance in defense of the forums integrity. If you take it as a personal affront, then perhaps yoga or fly-fishing might be in order.
insofar as the ICC argument goes- I stand bewildered at assertion that having less knowledge, attaining less accademicly, and acquiring fewer licenses is somehow a good thing. I never suggested that an HI should “spout code”. But I will maintain, he’d better damn well know it.