Electrical panels for garage & HVAC

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#1

Originally Posted By: Steven Brewster
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New Home


I want to be sure that I understand proper wiring techniques for subpanel fed by the main distribution panel. I inspected these today and each is supplied with overcurrent protection at the main distribution panel with the appropriate breaker. My question is bonding & grounds in these subpanels.
As seen in the garage panel, the bare copper serves as the neutral for the panel. All the neutrals and grounds for the branch circuits are connected to the neutral bus and this bus is bonded to the panel. This does not appear to be proper wiring methods since the grounds and neutrals should be isolated with the grounds bonded to the panel. The second pic is similar but serves the HVAC package unit. The breaker only serves as a disconnect at the exterior unit and the panel does not appear to be bonded.

Is this an acceptable wiring method, or should a dedicated ground have been installed. So far, this home has passed local inspections. I would appreciate any feedback.



Thanks
[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/P/P1020289.JPG ]
[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/P/P1020298.JPG ]

#2

Originally Posted By: brian winkle
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The subpanel is wrong it needs 4 conductors, the neutral is not permitted to be uninsulated either. Theres no grounding bar, can’t double up neutrals plus neutral bar needs to be isolated. Not to mention the white feeder.


The disco should be bonded, the bare wire is ok since it's a grounding conductor (no neutral needed) Looks like it could use a bushing too.

That control wire is not supposed to be in there either.


Hard to believe this passed, maybe just the rough passed? Is this a DIY?

#3

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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The 120v sub is improperly bonded/grounded.


double lugs on neutral, needs reidentification on whites



The HVAC panel is bonded (first screw on the right, next to lug)

The problems I see,
EGC is double lug <spliced> on bus bar
No fitting where it comes through wall and not even centered over hole.
CL2 Thermostat wiring routed through cabinet.

I bet the HVAC guy installed the outside panel and may have done the other one. What did the main panel look like

#4

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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Ok…I am late on this…BUT it is an important question I need to ask you…is the Garage Attached…or Detached…very important in knowing this…


I will explain WHY once you respond to the post.....

--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

#5

Originally Posted By: jpope
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I assume you’re referring to the potential need for a GEC at a detached structure Paul?


In any event, we've gone over this many times on this and other forums - the three wire vs. four wire feed (not to say that your input is not valued).

As home inspectors, I feel that we should assume that any load side panel be required to be a four wire feed - whether it's in a detached or attached building. If there is a three wire feed, we should defer it to an expert.

There are too many potential metallic paths between the service and load side equipment for HI's to determine that an appropriate 3 wire feed exists.

Granted, any detached building requires its own GEC (250.32(A) shows the exception).

--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

#6

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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But the validation of it being Illegal or legal is a VALID point to the HI…are you saying ALL HI’s…now this is an important statement should step beyond their boundary in electrical to state that in a detached garage that if an electrician ran a 3 wire layout and its own GEC that you would write them up for a violation…?


Can you see why maybe some electrical contractors would harbor resentment for the HI if the home owner made the electrician come out and run another 4 wire line...because in the opinion of the HI it is safer.....which is another discussion I am sure others would chime in on.

I am NOT stating it is safer....safe as...safer than Not.....but to the stardards of code....and code is the minimum allows standard the EC has to work with......are you sure this statement holds true.....

Now....regardless in that picture are the concerns I listed NOT concerns of note....![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

I guess the question was it is proper wiring......yes and no.....depends on the answer to my question....not safer...just proper.


But dang Jeff.....you steel all my thunder on the subject...lol

--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

#7

Originally Posted By: jpope
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pabernathy wrote:
are you saying ALL HI's should step beyond their boundary in electrical to state that in a detached garage that if an electrician ran a 3 wire layout and its own GEC that you would write them up for a violation....?


Certainly not. We (as HI's) cannot cite violations.

My statement would be that the system be verified to determine that no other path exists and that the 3 wire feed is proper and acceptable.

Home owners, and tradesmen/technicians can "unknowingly" add an additional metallic path between detached bldgs by installing fences, communication lines/cables, sidewalks or drives with reinforcing steel, etc.

--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
#8

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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Paul I would hate to go down the what is ‘safer’ road. icon_biggrin.gif


As we all know all 240/120 services are 3 wire and they often have parallel metallic paths.

A detached building without parallel paths fed three wire may well be 'safer' than the typical service. One benefit of a 3 wire feed is a larger conductor for fault clearing, the neutral is often larger than the EGC run with a feeder.

I also can see Jeff's point that it may be better to have an electrician determine if a 3 wire feed is acceptable at a particular location.

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

#9

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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point taken my friend…lol…got to remember me being a sparky gotta fight that in theory the wiring method which was asked is legal…and safe if done correctly…I did not get enough information from the PIC or the poster to determine anything additional…thus my question on the attached or detached…lol


Me likes 4 wire's as well on anything.....thats why they changes the Dryer and Range requirements years ago....![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

But I hear ya brother......Most certainly better to cover the HI's but to make notice of it.....let the home owner determine how relevant it is to their concerns.

--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

#10

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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pabernathy wrote:
Me likes 4 wire's as well on anything.....


I always think 4 (or 5) wire as well, but we are creatures of habit. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


pabernathy wrote:
thats why they changes the Dryer and Range requirements years ago....![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


I also think that is a change for the better if nothing else for conformity with every other item we wire in the same building.

I have never taken advantage of the 3 wire setup for a detached building but if you stop and think about it there is no reason not to.

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
#11

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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Their is a potential for metalic intervention I will call it regardless of being a 4 wire or 3 wire sub-panel.


In the theory of the 3 wire to a detached building is the shortest path to ground theory......the EGC and GC at that location will provide that path.

Heck if you want to be technical EVERY general service in the US (ok lets not get picky here...I am speaking general...lol ) is a 3 wire system for service....I know their are exceptions but give me some room man...I like to type.

The idea is which is going to provide safer.....4 wires to allow fault BACK to the main panel.....or SHORT in the building to provide closest path to GC and ground......point is as said.....have we done 3 wire detached buildings yep.....sure have.....have I done 4 wire detached and attached buildings...yep......are they both as safe as they should be...I sure hope so far be it for ME to re-write the code book.

I simply can NOT state something as being unsafe unless I can back up the proof behind it.....if the minimum standard is to allow it then it is viewes as safe from the NFPA.....they have more knowledge than me my friend.

I do see Jeff's point....honestly I do....I am not fighten ya Jeff....I like 4 wire myself but their is time when code predicts......take COST....

Tell a contractor on a budget it is safe to run 4 wire to that detached garage....when his budget is on the edge....when 3 wire and a short piece of # 6 AWG CU and (2) G.Rods wont fit his bill.....copper aint cheap....and AL is not as cheap as it once was....

keep an open mind....just be ready to tell the client and EC who got an approved inspection you think otherwise......now you can see where the friction may come from the old sparkies...lol...not me I love the debate myself.

--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

#12

Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


pabernathy wrote:
I do see Jeff's point....honestly I do....I am not fighten ya Jeff....I like 4 wire myself but their is time when code predicts......take COST....


I won't debate the safety, efficiency, cost effectiveness, or anything else for that matter, because I don't know.

If there has been a permit issued and signed off by the AHJ for a three wire feed, it's a done deal. I cannot, nor would I want to, attempt to override a permitted/engineered design.

I would ask, however, that the design and approval be verified by the seller (should be easy enough if permits were obtained) - OR - the system be evaluated to determine whether or not it is proper.

Most HI's (including myself) are not qualified to determine if a 3 wire system is proper.

--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
#13

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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jpope wrote:
Most HI's (including myself) are not qualified to determine if a 3 wire system is proper.


Don't short sell yourself, you are one of the HIs I would gladly have work with me over some of the licensed guys we have.

The prime difference is that you own a code book and care about your job. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
#14

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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lol…thats where I come in…actually I charge extra to convert a final obervation into a more detailed electrical discussion…otherwise just like you I leave it alone…note it if I feel it needs it and move on.


I do way more electrical inspections than I do home inspections if you look at the whole picture....people just seem to be more frigtened of a hot wire than a leaky toilet....heck I dont know why...

Point is....if both are done right and all the factors have been followed they are both as safe as you are gonna get.....having a perfect panel in a house of a DIYer who wants to open it is not safe....just should not be their sad to say but they do....so thats why I mod somewhere else to keep them from dieing...or getting crisp as best i can.

Well.....you can Jeff.........if the 3 wire system is sized right, grounded right, bonded right then you can make that obervation if it is not of those things....most certainly an observation and you seem sharp enough to hit those on the head right away my friend.

The main thing in understand the NEC on that is as asked first off...detached or attached.....a screen breezeway between a garage and house makes the garage attached...many do not know what....

But it never harms the inspector as you stated to make note of anything that concerns them.........you are 100% right on that.

--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

#15

Originally Posted By: Steven Brewster
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Sorry guys,


A portion of the garage is attached to the side of the home (rear corner). It was added onto the home at the purchasers request. As from the main distribution panel you can see the added circuit that was pulled without a proper bushing. There is a 4 wire installed in this panel for future use. Wonder why they didn’t use that?



[ Image: Main distribution ]
[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/P/P10202731.JPG ]