Originally Posted By: dandersen This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I use sure test circuit analyzer and infrared thermometer to locate all of my potential electrical fires and to determine operation of the AFCI/GFCI components.
I am interested in how other information that is obtained from from the sure test circuit analyzer is used in your home inspection. Information such as voltage drop in excess of 5% (recommended by National Electric Code to be corrected).
We are going around and around on other threads about quoting code requirements. How about test equipment results? Do you, and how do you report voltage drop and conductor impedance deficiencies etc.
When the voltage drop falls below 108 V and there is high amperage appliances i.e. whirlpool tubs on the circuit, I recommend the evaluation of the electrical service to prevent equipment failure.
When unusually long circuits are installed to pool houses and detached garages and workshops etc. I test the electrical service capacity and report the results.
But for the most part, I hunt for the glowing wire! And most the time I find it. I find about two houses a week with potential electrical fire conditions.
I would like anyone's opinion as to handling recommendations on some of these more gray areas (in my opinion), such as when I don't find a glowing wire.
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
is a reserved statement that I try to avoid if at all possible).
Many of the scenarios you described are far more technical than I feel comfortable analyzing. "Hunting down" the hot wire is not my job. Identifying the potential for that hot wire is more in line with what we do.
Our evaluation of the electrical system (as with all other systems) is designed to be much more superficial. Indications of problems and/or deficiencies are deferred to specialists.
Obviously we all have our own comfort levels.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: rcooke This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
dandersen wrote:
I use sure test circuit analyzer and infrared thermometer to locate all of my potential electrical fires and to determine operation of the AFCI/GFCI components.
I am interested in how other information that is obtained from from the sure test circuit analyzer is used in your home inspection. Information such as voltage drop in excess of 5% (recommended by National Electric Code to be corrected).
We are going around and around on other threads about quoting code requirements. How about test equipment results? Do you, and how do you report voltage drop and conductor impedance deficiencies etc.
When the voltage drop falls below 108 V and there is high amperage appliances i.e. whirlpool tubs on the circuit, I recommend the evaluation of the electrical service to prevent equipment failure.
When unusually long circuits are installed to pool houses and detached garages and workshops etc. I test the electrical service capacity and report the results.
But for the most part, I hunt for the glowing wire! And most the time I find it. I find about two houses a week with potential electrical fire conditions.
I would like anyone's opinion as to handling recommendations on some of these more gray areas (in my opinion), such as when I don't find a glowing wire.
I am a retired sparky and sure hope you are too as you seem to go a lot further then I and most other Home inspectors do .
I can see you trying to explain your self in a court some day.
When they pull out the SOP and ask what your back ground is and can you please tell the court why you are exceeding the SOP and why you go so much further the other home inspectors do.
Originally Posted By: dandersen This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Thanks Jeff,
I followed a thread elsewhere about GFCI I think.
Was interested in your approach.
I agree that we do not go too far.
The hot spots I find are "In My Face" type of thing. When I come up with a bad reading I am then aware that a condition exists and I look a little closer.
ie. I use my $9 light tester/GFCI tripper. If I find things out of the ordinary I may pull out the Sure Test. Then when I open the panels, I have IR in hand.
I try not to diagnose too far.
I do like to get as much information that I can come up with in a short test in time. Sends repair contractors in the right direction. Also validates my call.
Also, I find that it dosen't take much to surpass the abilities of some contractors. You find something and they come behind you and say nothing is wrong. They don't have the equipment or a clue!
On one occasion I found a burnt HVAC breaker on the outside of the house. I was having lunch with my Geologist when a homeowner called me, mad as a hornet. She hired two electricians to fix the problem and neither found the problem (she hired two because after the first attempt at repair the sales agent refused to hear it, as she had my report in hand and this is one thing I don't screw up on). As we happened to be 1/4 mile from her house, we went over there, pulled the breaker and pointed it out!
I wonder who paid for the next service call!
There were only two breakers in the panel. The electrician had a 50% chance of getting it.
Originally Posted By: dandersen This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
5. INSPECTOR does not perform engineering, architectural, plumbing, or any other job function requiring an occupational license in the jurisdiction where the inspection is taking place, unless the inspector holds a valid occupational license, in which case he/she may inform the CLIENT that he/she is so licensed, and is therefore qualified to go beyond this basic home inspection, and for additional fee, perform additional inspections beyond those within the scope of the basic home inspection. Any agreement for such additional inspections shall be in a separate writing or noted here: _____?????____________________________________________.
Originally Posted By: rcooke This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
dandersen wrote:
Roy,
1. I have spent 13 years in a court room!
2. What is this $300 tester for?
3. See post below.
4. I am an HVAC system design engineer with a broken back.
5. That is why I have never needed to advertise in this business.
6. That is why I can likely charge more than you do.
7. The SOP is a minimum standard.
8.
Quote:
5. INSPECTOR does not perform engineering, architectural, plumbing, or any other job function requiring an occupational license in the jurisdiction where the inspection is taking place, unless the inspector holds a valid occupational license, in which case he/she may inform the CLIENT that he/she is so licensed, and is therefore qualified to go beyond this basic home inspection, and for additional fee, perform additional inspections beyond those within the scope of the basic home inspection. Any agreement for such additional inspections shall be in a separate writing or noted here: _____?????____________________________________________.
I charge more then any other inspector with in 75 miles and always have and always will.
I like the idea of working less charging what I feel is a good price.
I wish to stay out of court.
The only ones who win in court is Lawyers, they never lose, even when they do not win.
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
dandersen wrote:
I find that it dosen't take much to surpass the abilities of some contractors. You find something and they come behind you and say nothing is wrong. They don't have the equipment or a clue!
Unfortunately, this is all too true. This is exactly the reason that I will recommend particular contractors that I feel are qualified. I also explain to the parties that I am open to a call from their own contractor when they can't find the problem that I have documented.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: wdecker This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I regularly find voltage drops of > 5% in these new, big houses they are builing around here. When I used to wire houses, I always used the next gauge up wire for 15 amp curcuits. I never had this problem.
I see houses with 14 gauge wire on a bedroom outlet circuit that has a run length of 100 - 130 feet (because of the stupid run path necessitated by the stupid architect and our codes not allowing notching of joists). These are the ones with the voltage drops of 10 to 15% at 12 amps. But just try to get an electrician (especially the one who installed this stuff for the builder) to find anything wrong.
In any case, the 'code' around here is 14 gauge for 15 amp circuits, even if the run is over 100 feet. Go figure.
And don't even TALK to mer about the builders who hire some poor mexican shlub to install the outlets and he back stabs every one instead of screwing them on.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Voltage drop really depends on load. If your typical bedroom was 130’ away on 14ga wire I doubt the lights and the clock radio would really pull enough to notice the drop.
I am still curious if you would get the same result from a real load as you get from the suretest. It is an indication but I am not “sure” it is a “test”
Originally Posted By: wdecker This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Greg;
I don't know where you live, but you seem to have a pretty bare bedroom.
What about a 48" widescreen TV and a 200 watt home theater system and a 200 watt stereo, not to mention a washer and dryer in the 'laundry closet'. What about a personal computer (these and ANY microprocessor utilizing device) are VERY sensitive to voltage drops.
I have set up a test bed, sheet of plywood with an AFCI and GFCI mounted on it with a volt meter on the supply side and all that, for teaching purposes. I also have a scope and have played around with it to see what makes these GFCIs and AFCIs really tick (used to be a working physicist).
When I got my suretest, I actually tested it (Wow, cosmic symetry!). When it says it puts a 12 amp load on a line, it puts a 12 ampo load on a line.
Originally Posted By: dandersen This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
So Bill, do you report on this stuff in your report ?
To what extent? Any guidelines to follow?
I was thinking about reporting on locations where the client would put a computer or electronic component i.e. .25 ohm ground vs. 1 ohm standard (IEEE standard).
Also when you get down below 108 vd. That will hurt pump motors ect...
Lower voltage = higher amps.
Originally Posted By: wdecker This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
If there is a consistant voltage drop (>5 % at 12 amps) in distant outlets, I will:
1) Open a couple of outlets and see if the conductors are connected via the 'back stab' holes (which can also cause this problem) or screwed down.
2) If screwed down, I will double check the gauge of the wire at the outlet (sometimes see 12 gauge wire on a 15 amp circuit run to a junction box and branched from there with 14 gauge).
3) Estimate, as best I can, the run length.
Will report 'outlets test as having axcessive voltage voltage drop under load. Recommend evaluation and repair by a licensed and insured electrical contractor'. Thus I pass any liability off to him.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
You are overestimating what the loads are. A “200w” stereo won’t draw anything like 200a. That is a marketing fantasy, just like the 1800w hair dryer.
If there is a laundry in a bedroom it should be on a dedicated 20a laundry circuit. Do you report that?
I also strongly dissagree about computers being particularly sensitive to voltage sags. The switcher supply in a PC works quite well across a very wide voltage range. The switcher simply varies the pulse width to compensate for the sag. This is a closed loop system, watching the output and varying the input to make it right. There are lots of PC supplies that work through the range of 95-250 voltrs on the fly.
Smaller MPU supplies in microwaves and washing machines typically run on 5vdc derived from a bulk supply of 10-12v in a pass transistor supply. If the input sagged 40% there would still be plenty of volts to feed the pass transistors. CMOS doesn’t really care anyway. It works down to 2.5v or so anyway.
My homebuilt CMOS spa controller runs on a totally unregulated DC supply (a wall wart) and it has never burped in the 20 years it has been running.
BTW since you do have a scope set up, tell us. How long is the test pulse on a sure test?
Originally Posted By: wdecker This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Greg;
Yes, I point out that tha laundry should be on a seperate circuit.
I have worked in IS for 24 years and, agreed, seen much variation between different manufacturers with reagrds to what causes their bozes to blow. The older computers were much more sensitive.
By pulse width, to you mean the AFCI simulated arc pulse?
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I was a hardware guy at IBM for 30 years myself, the last 10 designing and building computer rooms as an IPR/contract services guy.
There used to be a wide range of powersupply types. These days we don’t see much except the switchers and some small transformer supplies. These days a wall wart may be a switcher. You can usually tell by the weight.
The pulse am asking about is the 12a load. It has to be pretty short or you will be tripping breakers if the circuit already has some load on it.
Originally Posted By: wdecker This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Greg;
Checked on that pulse length question.
Ideal Tech Support says that the pulse for the voltage drop test is 8.5 cycles. I measured my particular unit at closer to 8.2 cycles. Works out to .136 seconds versus their claimed .141 seconds.
Your point. I know that this is a small sample time upon which to base a defect reading, but I defect it only if I see all the outlets in a particular room and/or area and if the readings exceed about 7-10 % in all the tested outlets. Multiple readings, multiple sources.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I was curious because there is a guy over at Bob’s house saying his suretest shows a percernt or two of VD right at the breaker. I was wondering if this was an artifact of the breaker itself.
There is a coil in series with the load in an inverse time breaker.
I agree the sure test can give you an indication of a problem but in some cases it may not be what it seems.
Originally Posted By: wdecker This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Greg;
You are ALWAYS going to have some sort of voltage drop when you add load. I have measured VD at outlets couming right off the panel. That is why I do not simply stick to the 5% NEC rule when I measure. I add some to the 5% because of the varigin of error in the suretest (0 - 50 %, <5% variation). As I said before, I will not start writing things up unless I get a pretty consistant 7-15% VD among many outlets at a distance. If I find one or two only, they are usually causes by back stabing of the outlet.
One more thing. If you measure an outlet with a suretest that is withing 5 - 10 feet (run length) of the grounding bond, you will sometimes get a floating or false ground indication. This is because of the circuitry they use to sense ground faults.
