Framing Inspection Stud question

Originally Posted By: pgudek
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I came across a builder who is using wall studs that appear to be scrap wood that has been pieced back together with a sawtooth cut and glue. Some studs have as many as eight sections pieced together. Any opinions on how to report this and if its a major issue would be appreciated.


Originally Posted By: jpope
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Are you talking about finger jointed studs?


![](upload://9gUKKd480JICi900EluXY0eV687.jpeg)

They are becoming more and more popular and are approved by many jurisdictions. You can get more information here http://www.ufpi.com/product/fjstud/index.htm


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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I agree that it sounds like it might be “finger joined lumber” or “end joined lumber” which is used sometimes. These sites also have some more info:


http://www.wwpa.org/techguide/fj.htm
http://www.cwc.ca/products/lumber/finger_joined/

But my opinion is the jury is out on the long term durability. It is still glued wood, and moisture does get to the exterior studs sometimes. Not a good thing for [glued wood] ... ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

If you want to pursue it you can write down the grade stamp info and ask for a code acceptance report (e.g. ICC-ES report under the IRC code), or check with the local building official if that is acceptable to them.

PS. Ya may want to move this to the ?Exterior? section so others can find it easier ...


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jpope
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I agree with you Robert about the “jury still being out.” However, the “Glue Lam” Beams seem to be withstanding the test.


The area where these finger (end) jointed studs and OSW studs seem to really work well is when they are used as "tall wall" studs. They have less of a tenancy to warp and twist in two story applications than traditional lumber.


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Robert,


I'm not debating you, but just have an observation from a woodworkers point of view.

I have worked on wooden boats for many years. One thing that I have found over about the last 10 years or so is that many of the glues, especially the epoxies and plastic resin glues, are not only waterproof but are actually stronger than the wood. Those finger joints give a lot of gluing surface area, and I would think that the studs might break in a different place than the joint.

If the grain is properly matched the studs might actually warp or twist less than a long piece of wood. I know that is especially true when gluing up a table top or something like that. I would much rather use several smaller pieces of wood than one larger one in that type of use. I know, different stuff, just thought you might find it interesting though.

Blaine ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)


Originally Posted By: tgardner
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Blaine,


As an owner of an old Chris-Craft, I agree with you - it's not the Glue that's weak, it the lumber. Finger joints are fine as long as the cumulative length of the fingers is 8 times the cross section of the Joint.
(like a good scarf joint)

Boat building 101.

rgds, tg


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Thanks for the input from the woodworking point of view guys. Maybe the difference is the manufactured lumber is mass produced and under different stress in service, and they probably don’t use the top of the line expensive adhesives.


Manufacturers of glued wood products are not so quick to admit there have been problems unless pushed, but they will definitely tell you these products should not be exposed to moisture. Roof and exterior wall members that should note be exposed to moisture ... hmmmmm ... but we all know what the reality is ... ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

Glu-Lams actually don't hold up very well in high moisture conditions, and if there are interface problems there can be significant strength loss. One of the reasons LVL lumber (e.g. Microlams) were developed, which really doesn't rely on glue to resist stresses ... it mostly holds the laminations together (like a stack of paper on its side held together).

But even LVL's are not recommended for moist conditions, and these members have been damaged when the building wasn't enclosed/covered right away leaving it exposed to the weather, or where a roof leaks. This moistly just causes cupping and swelling on LVL's, but has caused glue interface problems. Thats why LVL's that will be exposed during construction are recommended to have a waterproof barrier (e.g. "Watershed" overlay for the Microlams), which I recommend for any LVL.

One huge disadvantage with the finger joined studs is that the glue lines are also under stress in exterior wall studs when subjected to wind loads. This combined with the likelihood over time of the members being exposed to moisture and past problems with glued structural lumber makes me stop and really think about these products.

I am not saying they are bad, but as an engineer also I am looking at them with a skeptical eye for now due to the past problems. Maybe the manufacturer's have gotten better with the adhesives they use and ensuring a good bond on these finger joined members ... but I think only time will tell, and why I say the "Jury is Still Out" ...

Just my 2-nickles ...


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Larry L Leesch
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I think it important for you to know that most finger-joint studs are rated for a vertical load only. It will be stated in the grade stamp on the stud. Make sure that none of this material is used as purlin struts or in any other fashion than a vertical load.


Originally Posted By: gwiggins
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I sold building materials for 12 years prior to inspecting and sold many finger jointed studs. These studs are straighter and do not bow or warp as bad as regular studs. I must admit that I did have one job where the glue in the joints was bad and the joist had to be replaced but this was one job out of hundreds. I would suggest when inspecting to put horizontal pressure on several studs to test their integrity.


Originally Posted By: jdavidson
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This is the reason I read this BB. Now I will know what that is when I come across it.



John Davidson


Heads Up Home Inspections


Morton, IL

Originally Posted By: mrose
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Robert O’connor and others,


Interesting discussion.

In Georgia finger jointed lumber is being used in roof rafters which surprised me when I first saw them. A builder friend of mine says they are approved.

What is your view on rafters being finger jointed?


--
Mike Rose
Cornerstone Home Inspection Co. LLC
Lawrenceville, GA

www.cornerstonehomeinspect.com

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi Mike


Personally I am bothered by "finger jointed" lumber being under any type of horizontal load, I need to do some research on this, it does not bother me about vertical load. Maybe I'm just being too old fashioned ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: jpope
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Gerry,


Do you feel the same about Glu-Lam beams? Just curious. It sounds like you feel that this manufactured lumber doesn't perform well under tension (horz load?) but it's okay under compression (vert load?).


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Finger joined lumber has been used for quite a while for things like solid turned porch posts and misc studs. There has not been widespread use as framing lumber, but it is becoming more common now that the IRC has provisions for it’s use.


The IRC has provisions for the use of finger joined lumber for floor, wall, and roof framing if it is "approved" (IRC R502.1.3, R602.1.1, and R802.1.2 respectively). The key provision is that they must be "approved" by the building official, which usually means code evaluation reports have been submitted and accepted.

Larry made a good point that most lumber is graded for STUD use, which is only for vertical loads with occasional lateral load. Floor/roof framing must be graded for EXT use (see links above).

For new construction I would make sure the lumber is correctly graded/stamped and was "approved", and for existing construction I would look carefully at the joints to make sure they have not deteriorated. Also, if there has been a leak in the area of these members I would make a note of that.

In the end it is still glued pieces of cheap scrap lumber, and I am on the fence looking with a wary eye for now ... ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Finger jointed lumber. We’ve all seen finger jointed door jambs, trim and base fail and come apart.


Finger jointed lumber is not the same a glue-laminated lumber in that the lumber laps are not very long (short overlap) and the overlap is all at the same place (not staggered).

I also have concerns regarding vertical loads being applied to finger jointed lumber. Yes, it is approved, and yes there have been failures, but my concern is that wood splits when enough load is applied into the end grain. Anyone ever split wood with an ax? The finger joints are both the ax and the starting split into the grain. Just a concern of mine, one which has not been borne out in practice.

On other than vertical loads, glue-lams have staggered offsets in the wood, transferring the load from a confined splice to a large area. Finger jointed studs, on the other hand, have all laps located in a confined splice area.

Just my reservations about them. That said, if they are approved ... only the 'test of time' will prove them adequate or prove their a failure. I just would not want my house to be a 'test house'.

Like poly piping, I think it deserves being mentioned. After all, poly was 'approved', so was the original aluminum wiring. There have been many other 'approved' products which failed over time.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Larry L Leesch
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Some other info regarding finger joint studs. They can not be kerfed or blocked if crooked. They can be replaced or sistered. You cannot notch more than 25%. One of the most common things I find is that the electricians will drill holes thru the middle of the finger joint rendering them worthless as they will not accept ANY lateral load or weight. A 5 year old kid can break them in half if drilled at the joints. They don’t generally stay straighter than solid materials. Most framers don’t have a clue how to work with them and use them in areas where they are not allowed. Our company testing shows they are most likely to come apart if wet.


If you are doing new construction inspections and run into finger joint studs you better know what you are doing. As I see it, the liability factor goes up a lot.