GE panel opinions

Specific Inspection Topics Electrical Inspections
1

I have seen this upper bus bar discoloration on 3 or 4 GE panels (some interior and some exterior) and always recommend an electrician.

This time I spent some extra time and checked for abnormal heat after running some larger loads (A/C and oven) and no heat buildup was found.

Townhome, 200A panel, gas heat, gas water heater. Panel is located at exterior but very clean inside.

Anything else besides bad connection/heat to cause this?
Note, it may look like rust in the picture but does not in person, just discoloration.

may 7 2008 002.jpg

may 7 2008 003.jpg

2

Bruce , I am not a chemist but wonder if it could be a chemical reaction off the feeder.
Did you notice if they were all Aluminum?

3

What size is the wire into the lugs at the 200 A OCD?

Were they torqued properly?

Do you wear PPE?

4

yes all AL

5

4/0

Didn’t check torque but could not move the wires in the lugs or feel any heat with a good load.

of course :wink:

6

Joe
Is there really any way that the torque requirement is a Home Inspector’s responsibility?

This is not something that any inspector should or could be looking for.

Not to be a pain, but there are limits to certain items. Torqueing is performed at the time of installation.
Maybe a Thermal image test can be performed…again, is that the HI’s responsibility?

7

Bruce may have looked at the instructions in his panelboard like theseand if he simply mentioned the torque requirements, he would have done what anyone would expect of a professional.

I would admire that type of home inspector, and as far as the thermal image testing, some here are now becomong experts on this testing procedure and may have some images that could be included in a report, just to give another method of inspection.

Burns and Other Injuries

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/construction/images/nav_topbanner.gif

Shock-related injuries include burns, internal injuries, and injuries due to involuntary muscle contractions.Burns

The most common shock-related injury is a burn. Burns suffered in electrical incidents may be one or more of the following three types:

Warning:
Please be advised these images are of a graphic nature.

Warning:
Please be advised these images are of a graphic nature.

Warning:
Please be advised these images are of a graphic nature.Internal Injuries
Excessive electricity flowing through the human body can cause serious damage to internal organs. Resulting medical problems include hemorrhage (or internal bleeding), tissue destruction, and nerve or muscle damage. These internal injuries may not be immediately apparent to the victim or observers; however, left untreated, they can result in death. Photo Example

Warning:
Please be advised these images are of a graphic nature.Involuntary Muscle Contraction

Normal muscle contraction is caused by very small amounts of electricity that are created within our bodies. Muscles violently contract when stimulated by excessive amounts of electricity. These involuntary contractions can damage muscles, tendons, and ligaments, and may even cause broken bones. If the victim is holding an electrocuting object, hand muscles may contract, making it impossible to drop the object and prolonging contact with the current. Also, injury or death may result when violent muscle contractions cause workers to fall from ladders and scaffolds or inadvertently strike other objects.Photo Example

Warning:
Please be advised these images are of a graphic nature.

8

Joe T.,

I’m of the opinion that the HI has no business speculating on the cause of the discoloration when he writes his report.

The cause could be several things.

The observed conditions only indicate that something may be wrong either now or in the past and that a qualified electrician should repair it as needed.

I guess that means I now lack your admiration. Oh well.

9

Corrosion caused by dissimilar metals. They used to coat the lugs with grease to prevent this condition.IMO

10

Much ado about nothing. Those GE 200 amp mains are that way from brand spanking new. Here’s a pic of a brand new, never installed, one right off the shelf:

Probably was the prudent thing to do, but in this case it was an “oops!”. The electrician probably sold them a service upgrade or panel change to get rid of their junk GE equipment.

11

Thanks Marc. Good info.

12

**This publication includes information that mentions *overheating *and shows examples, some of which are with the same defects shown in the pictures here:

NEMA Standards Publication AB 4-2003
***Guidelines for Inspection and Preventive Maintenance
of Molded Case Circuit Breakers Used in
Commercial and Industrial Applications
Published by:
***National Electrical Manufacturers Association
**1300 North 17th Street, Suite 1847
Rosslyn, Virginia 22209
www.nema.org

13

Maybe the discoloration was caused by the welding process where they welded the bars behind the breaker.

The interesting thing is that not all of these exact same parts have the discoloration present. I have two of these panels/mains and neither are like that.

Its nothing to do with lack of dielectric grease, not needed with these SE cables anymore. Also its an AL to AL connection.

Joe,
I wonder if the IR camera guys know to run EACH and every load for a period of time before checking for ecessive heat. No load current = no heat, even with a bad breaker or bad connection. Since most homes have nothing available to load the 15 and 20 amp branch circuits you will have to carry a load device with you.

14

Joe T, we’ve been down this road no fewer than a couple of times before. Please explain how mentioning the torque requirements after making an observation is “what anyone would expect of a professional”.

A professional WHAT?

The inspector’s responsibility is to observe and report the apparent conditions visible at the time of the inspection. I dont know why something may be discolored. I only know that it IS, and report the condition.

15

That’s it Joe you got it! :slight_smile:

“The inspector’s responsibility is to observe and report the apparent conditions visible at the time of the inspection. I don’t know why something may be discolored. I only know that it IS, and report the condition.”

Good Boy Joe!

This is a “Statement made by a professional!” :mrgreen:

16

Okay, you electrical GURU’s are at it again. What I would do is note the discoloration and suggest that a qualified electrician be brought in to observe the condition. At that point I have satisfied the SOP and myself. Trying to figure out what the problem is is beyond my scope and my expertise. If I would try to GUESS what the cause or seriousness of the problem was I would very well be doing my client a disservice.
Now if I’m wrong here correct me.