Got Mold

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#1

Originally Posted By: gporter
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http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/D/DSC01456.JPG ]

–
Gary Porter


GLP’s Home and Mold Inspections LLC


Orlando, Fl 32828


321-239-0621


www.homeandmoldinspections.com
#2

Originally Posted By: rbennett
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Tape and paint

#3

Originally Posted By: hgordon
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No Richard!


"Suspect mold noted at the Air Handler plenum. Have an Indoor Air Quality inspection (mold test) of the dwelling as well as the garage to determine if possible suspect mold spore amplification has transferred to the interior of the home."

Richard...you never advise that something be "overlooked" because it could come back to bite you in your rear.

The proper thing to do here would be to have the "suspect mold" tested to determine its possible affect on humans...not further contaminating the interior is also a big issue, so extra care should be give to isolate that section from the rest of the duct system, just in case.

--
Harvey Gordon
SE Florida NACHI Chapter - President
hgordon@fl.nachi.org

#4

Originally Posted By: ladams
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Did you offer Mold testing? If Not I would! that looks gross!!! icon_cool.gif

–
Lind Adams


727-233-1038


MDA Group Inc. Home & Mold Inspections


www.mdagroupinc.com

#5

Originally Posted By: lkage
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hgordon wrote:
...you never advise that something be "overlooked" because it could come back to bite you in your rear.


Boy is that the truth!

--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei
#6

Originally Posted By: Caoimh?n P. Connell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Hello Mr. Gordon:


Just a point of clarification.

One cannot "... have the "suspect mold" tested to determine its possible affect on humans..." simply because that cannot be done. An HI may ?test? the mould to determine genus and species, but that is all. In general, an HI cannot even test the mould to determine quantity, let alone the effects on human health.

Hope that helps,
Caoimh?n P. Connell

Forensic Applications, Inc.
http://members.aol.com/fiosrach/main.html


(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

#7

Originally Posted By: dandersen
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If it were my house, I’d save a bunch of time and money, get out the bleach and water and kill the stuff! Maintenance!


HVAC equipment produces an environment that promotes fungus growth. The A/C coil runs at 40 degrees design temperature. This temperature causes condensation. This temp and rel/humidity gives fungus what it needs. This situation exists inside and outside the equipment. Proper preventative maintenance uses chemicals that kill carbon based life (and you if your not careful).

Why are we testing here?
Just clean up the mess.
As you can see, I refrain from using the word "MOLD" at all cost. If there is another way, use it.

#8

Originally Posted By: Caoimh?n P. Connell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Hello Mr. Anderson ?


Your response was partly correct, and partly incorrect. Proper maintenance is, of course, the key. However, the key to maintenance as far as mould goes, is not the use of chemicals, but rather moisture control. It is not necessarily true that ?HVAC equipment produces an environment that promotes fungus growth.? The statement is partly true in some parts of the country and not true in other parts, given equal maintenance practices. In some parts of the country, one would have to deliberately set out to water their HVAC system to get fungi to grow.

As far as chemicals go, (including bleach). In 17 years, I have never seen a single case (and I have investigated hundreds upon hundreds of cases) where any kind of bleach, fungicide or biostat was ever necessary. These compounds are primarily placebos that placate the mind, but otherwise do very little to actually control mould in and of themselves. In any event, these chemicals can create their own indoor air quality problems, and should not be used.

Although some HVAC systems do require the use of biocides in a controlled fashion as part of routine maintenance, in a recent study recent a study (1) concerning the efficacy of disinfectants, the authors used a variety of disinfectants and follow-up treatments on drywall that had been colonized with a variety of moulds. The disinfectants included amines, stabilized high-oxygen solutions, chlorine dioxide solutions, etc. In every case, without exception, mould growth returned to drywall sections that had been treated with each of the disinfectants. However, is moisture is controlled, the mould will not return, even where no biocide has been applied.

Furthermore, the use of any chemical to kill the mould does absolutely nothing to the effectiveness allergenic potential of the mould. For the most part, bleached mould may be just as allergenic as unbleached mould.

Just somethoughts from an industrial hygienist's perspective.

Cheers,
Caoimh?n P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
Forensic Applications, Inc.
http://members.aol.com/fiosrach/main.html

1 -Price D.L. Ahearn D.G. Sanitation of Wallboard Colonized with Stachybotrys chartarum, Current Microbiology, Vol. 39, (1999) page 21.

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

#9

Originally Posted By: chorne
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I thought “mould” was the Canadian spelling!?

#10

Originally Posted By: jschwartz1
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Quote:
One cannot "... have the "suspect mold" tested to determine its possible affect on humans..." simply because that cannot be done. An HI may ?test? the mould to determine genus and species, but that is all. In general, an HI cannot even test the mould to determine quantity, let alone the effects on human health.


This statement has some flaws. Here is a portion of a lab report:

[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/m/mold_test1.JPG ]

Here is the definition: (Image a little smaller than I wanted)

[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/A/Aspergilus.jpg ]

I believe having this information for your client will prove how important it is NOT to have amplification in the home.

--
Jay Schwartz
Coast To Coast Home Services, Inc
www.Coasttocoasthomeservices.com
Southeast Florida NACHI Chapter - VP www.floridanachi.org
NACHI - Legislative Committee Member
MAB - Member
#11

Originally Posted By: jschwartz1
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/D/DCP_5425.JPG ]


[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/D/DCP_5426.JPG ]

–
Jay Schwartz


Coast To Coast Home Services, Inc


www.Coasttocoasthomeservices.com


Southeast Florida NACHI Chapter - VP www.floridanachi.org


NACHI - Legislative Committee Member


MAB - Member

#12

Originally Posted By: jmertins
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


If ya find it, report it. We are the problem finders NOT fixers or solvers. Report it, and hand it off to the correct expert in the field.

–
John Mertins


Baxter Home Inspections, Inc.

"Greatness courts failure"

Roy "Tin Cup" McAvoy
#13

Originally Posted By: Caoimh?n P. Connell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Hello Mr. Schwartz:


Actually, my post does not contain any flaws, and your message underscores the validity of my comments. The ?mold report? you posted contains absolutely no information concerning the health effects of the moulds in question- indeed, the mould report you posted is entirely invalid, and I would have no difficulty discrediting the report in the event of litigation.

I was unable to open the second file (http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/A/Aspergilus.jpg)

To reiterate: One cannot "... have the "suspect mold" tested to determine its possible affect on humans..." simply because that cannot be done. An HI may ?test? the mould to determine genus and species, but that is all. In general, an HI cannot even test the mould to determine quantity, let alone the effects on human health.

Testing required to determine the possible health effects on humans is a massively expensive undertaking which requires a team effort of industrial hygiene (for epidemiology/microbiology) and medical practitioners. It not sampling that is within the realm of the HI.

In 17 years, I have not yet encountered any mould sampling performed by an HI which was valid or that stood up in litigation when challenged by an industrial hygienist.

I encourage you to pursue this line of query with additional questions and challenges.

Cheers,
Caoimh?n P. Connell

Forensic Industrial Hygienist
Forensic Applications, Inc.
http://members.aol.com/fiosrach/main.html

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

#14

Originally Posted By: dandersen
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Quote:
Although some HVAC systems do require the use of biocides in a controlled fashion as part of routine maintenance, in a recent study recent a study (1) concerning the efficacy of disinfectants, the authors used a variety of disinfectants and follow-up treatments on drywall that had been colonized with a variety of moulds. The disinfectants included amines, stabilized high-oxygen solutions, chlorine dioxide solutions, etc. In every case, without exception, mould growth returned to drywall


The mold in the first picture is not on sheetrock, it is metal.


Quote:
The statement is partly true in some parts of the country and not true in other parts, given equal maintenance practices. In some parts of the country, one would have to deliberately set out to water their HVAC system to get fungi to grow.


We are talking about one HVAC unit, in one part of the country (assumably where the HI is from). It is true in every part of the country, but is more of an issue in some than others. Are you saying the "Swamp Coolers" in AZ have no problem because it's hot and dry there? Why are they called Swamp Coolers?

The system design of HVAC equipment promotes an artificial environment that is closer to what FUNGUS like than the ambient air (no matter where you live).

The picture is an indication of a "lack of maintenance", not improper equipment design or an environmental issue requiring mold testing.

I can't see beyond the picture, and there may be big mold issues elsewhere in the house. As a HI you report what you "Can" see.
If this is all I saw, I would address it as a maintenance issue. I belive in putting things in perspective. Making up a Mold issue that will turn heads does not help anyone. Report what you see, not what "could be". The "black stuff" is outside the air duct system and is located outside the living space of the house, in the garage. Some may say, "it might get into the duct from there". If mold is getting in, so is CO from the car. That issue was not reported and is a bigger concern to me because 100% of us will die from CO vs. a small percent of use effected by mold.

Quote:
As far as chemicals go, (including bleach). In 17 years, I have never seen a single case (and I have investigated hundreds upon hundreds of cases) where any kind of bleach, fungicide or biostat was ever necessary. These compounds are primarily placebos that placate the mind, but otherwise do very little to actually control mould in and of themselves. In any event, these chemicals can create their own indoor air quality problems, and should not be used.


I also spent many years killing off mold on HVAC equipment and correcting Indoor Air Quality and never once created an indoor air quality problem from the chemicals used. Are you telling me that all the water treatment products we use in annual maintenance and operational maintenance on HVAC equipment is not required? If these chemical treatments were not used we would all have "Legionnaires Disease".

Yes, treating the mold one time does not mean it will never return. That is why maintenance is maintenance. It is not mediation. It's something you must keep up with.

Quote:
Although some HVAC systems do require the use of biocides in a controlled fashion as part of routine maintenance, in a recent study recent a study (1) concerning the efficacy of disinfectants, the authors used a variety of disinfectants and follow-up treatments on drywall that had been colonized with a variety of moulds.


I retract part of that. That is not what you were saying.
However, again sheetrock is not used in HVAC System design.

I assume you are connected in some way with the Mold business.
There is a place for your services. But, not every spec of mold encountered needs to be attacked with hellfire missiles.

If mold is in sheetrock where I inspect, I call it out as a MAJOR REPAIR and SAFETY ISSUE and inform the client that all the effected building materials will have to be torn out, the moisture condition corrected, left over mold treated and the section of house rebuilt. But I assure you that there will be more than a few specs of mildew as evidence to support the above recommendation before hanging my butt out there as fair game to a lawyer.

This is just my opinion.



[/quote]
#15

Originally Posted By: Caoimh?n P. Connell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Hello Mr. Andersen:


Thanks for your comments.

Quote:The mold in the first picture is not on sheetrock, it is metal.

Mould doesn?t grow on metal. For the purposes of this topic, mould is a saprophytic organism that grows on (primarily) cellulose. The mould in the photograph is growing on the same stuff as found in drywall (cellulose). In some cases, it may appear that mould is growing on metal, however, closer inspection will reveal that the mould is actually growing on something that is settled or attached to the metal.

In any event, the point of the drywall discussion was to demonstrate that the use of fungicide is not warranted.


Quote: We are talking about one HVAC unit, in one part of the country (assumably where the HI is from). It is true in every part of the country, but is more of an issue in some than others. Are you saying the "Swamp Coolers" in AZ have no problem because it's hot and dry there? Why are they called Swamp Coolers?

Mould is mould is mould and it doesn?t matter where in the country one finds it ? what changes are the environmental conditions effecting the grown. In parts of the country where relative humidities are elevated, dew points are necessarily elevated as well ? as such small temperature drops in the HVAC may result in condensation problems resulting in mould growth on the cellulosic material in (or on) the ducts ? whereas the same HVAC system in a drier clime may not have similar condensation problems at twice the temperature drop.

Swamp coolers whose trickle media are cellulosic will exhibit a greater mould potential than swamp coolers whose trickle media are metal mesh ? the meteorological conditions not withstanding. The effectiveness of a swamp coolers is what changes as the air becomes drier ? not its potential for fungal invasion.

Quote: The system design of HVAC equipment promotes an artificial environment that is closer to what FUNGUS like than the ambient air (no matter where you live).

Not quite true. HVAC systems do not necessarily contain what all fungi need ? a food source. In the case of moulds, that food source is almost exclusively cellulose. Therefore, unless there is sufficient food in sufficient quantities then the moisture content is simply unimportant. Furthermore, the moisture content must be within tolerances on the available food source, or again ? no growth. To that extent, the system design of HVAC equipment does NOT promote an artificial environment that is closer to what FUNGUS like than the ambient air (no matter where you live). Furtheremore, ambient air concentrations of moulds can be orders of magnitude greater outdoors than indoors - even for spaces with visible mould growth.

Quote: The picture is an indication of a "lack of maintenance", not improper equipment design or an environmental issue requiring mold testing.

100% agreement.

You comments on CO vs. mould is well stated. The reality is that there is virtually no science behind the so-called killer moulds and there is absolutely no such thing as ?toxic mould.? Having said that, it is important to note that unlike CO, mould destroys that upon which it grows (that is its function). As the mould is growing on the cellulose of the duct wrapping it is damaging the wrapping and degrading the product.

Quote: I also spent many years killing off mold on HVAC equipment and correcting Indoor Air Quality and never once created an indoor air quality problem from the chemicals used.

To your knowledge. The reality is that the chemical exposures posed by the biocides may have had deleterious effects that were not noted or associated with their use.

Quote: Are you telling me that all the water treatment products we use in annual maintenance and operational maintenance on HVAC equipment is not required?

No. As I stated: Although some HVAC systems do require the use of biocides in a controlled fashion as part of routine maintenance, in a recent study concerning the efficacy of disinfectants, the authors used a variety of disinfectants and follow-up treatments on drywall that had been colonized with a variety of moulds. The point being that such chemicals are not a panacea and the focus of attention should be on proper maintenance ? in some cases, but not all cases, that proper maintenance may include appropriate use of biostats.

Quote: If these chemical treatments were not used we would all have "Legionnaires Disease".

Not true. The organism that causes Legionnaires Disease (Legionella pneumophila) is a ubiquitous Gram- negative organism that resides in many treated and untreated HVAC water systems. As a general rule, I caution maintenance people to NOT sample for the organism since they will probably find it (chemical treatments notwithstanding) and then they will have a scare on their hands that they will have difficulty in abating. Legionella pneumophila, like moulds, is very prevalent. The epidemiology of the disease is not exclusively incumbent on mere exposure- furthermore, the environment of the HVAC system wherein it resides needs some unusual characteristics to produce the correct strain. Exposure does not equal disease.

Quote: However, again sheetrock is not used in HVAC System design.
Not true. Sheetrock and (more importantly) the constituent of sheet rock that supports mould growth is used in HVACs. I very, very often find sheetrock return plena and false ceiling return plena as part of an HVAC design.

Quote: I assume you are connected in some way with the Mold business.
I am just a scientist - a forensic industrial hygienist. My role is to assess and study human exposures to ______ (mould, chemicals, ionizing radiation, lasers, sound, Bacteria, etc?.) and to present tenable findings in court. I was one of the first industrial hygienists to buck the silliness of the original CDC report on Stachybotrys atra as being very poor science. (And initially, I took a LOT of heat for it!) You can read my review of the CDC reports at: http://members.aol.com/piobin/sok.html I am often called to perform residential mould inspections or perform mould exposure assessments (or as a rebuttal expert in cases where an HI has taken an expert position on moulds and Bacteria that cannot be supported by science).

Quote: There is a place for your services. But, not every spec of mold encountered needs to be attacked with hellfire missiles.

My point exactly, so why are you so keen to keep using such chemical missiles? The truth is that the mould in question could be adequately remediated and controlled by using your Mom?s tried and true ointment ? elbow grease (no bleach, biocides, etc? - maybe a little Lysol if you want to get fancy), and then alter the conditions which created the moisture problem in the first place.

Quote: If mold is in sheetrock where I inspect, I call it out as a MAJOR REPAIR and SAFETY ISSUE and inform the client that all the effected building materials will have to be torn out,...

That should keep you busy! ALL the sheetrock in EVERY house you enter will have to be torn out since mould, and particularly Stachybotrys atra, the killer black mould of newspaper hype, is found in EVERY sheet of drywall in EVERY house in the nation. You will be a very busy man, and likely to receive a recognizable Christmas gift from the drywall industry.

In truth, not only is mould present in every piece of drywall, but very often remediation of even thousands of square feet of vegetative growth can be quickly and inexpensively effected without having to remove the drywall by simply wiping the vegetative growth from the wall. Only when the water damage has degraded the structural integrity of the drywall or colonization has degraded the structural integrity of the drywall is removal warranted.

Fell free to pursue the matter further.

Cheers,
Caoimh?n P. Connell

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG