Originally Posted By: lkage This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
wdecker wrote:
Maybe this will helps.
Would you live in a house where the bathroom outlets are GFCI protected?
...I would welcome any comments.
Well, yes, yes I would and do. In fact I go so far as to recommend to others that they would be safer if they did too.  
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
it is common to find a 15 amp outlet that has a wire run of over 100 feet and uses 14 guage wire. What usually happens is that such an outlet will read as having 10 to 20% voltage drop at 12 amps, a violation of the NEC (but not necessarily the local code).
While it is considered " SHOTTY " work to do as you have listed above , their is no NEC ruling on this but merly a suggestion if you will by the NEC pertaining to voltage drop.
In article 90.5(c) it defines the FPN as not being enforceable buy the NEC.
Now with all that said.........I agree with you 100%....and many do not take into consideration of the potential problem of Voltage Drop on the eff. of the appliance or product attached to the end of that excessive drop.
Remember their are even things in the NEC code that are not actually code but are good common sense things Electricians should be aware of when they are doing an installation.
Do I use 12 AWG on normal bedrooms in normal houses we wire...shoot no because it is not really needed in those cases and when you are bidding against other contractors you have to be price aware. Is 12 AWG better than 14 AWG....well in capacity yes...in normal practicle situations no.....just depends on the runs and capacity in question.
Sorry to jump in....just wanted to make that point....Press on my friends
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Roy,
FYI.....I did not state anything about the SOP...only to answer to correct the statement about the voltage drop being a ruling in the NEC....The SOP as you stated does not go into this......I just happen to go above the SOP which is allowed since my speciality is in Electricity.....but again I did not make any statement about the voltage drop being SOP....please read my post again to Mr. Decker .....was only commenting on a correction in the post in regards to voltage drop.....most certainly not in regards to a SOP
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: rcooke This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
pabernathy wrote:
Roy,
FYI.....I did not state anything about the SOP...only to answer to correct the statement about the voltage drop being a ruling in the NEC....The SOP as you stated does not go into this......I just happen to go above the SOP which is allowed since my speciality is in Electricity.....but again I did not make any statement about the voltage drop being SOP....please read my post again to Mr. Decker .....was only commenting on a correction in the post in regards to voltage drop.....most certainly not in regards to a SOP
Sorry Paul I should have made it clearer. I was thanking you for your post's .
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The SOP comment was just a general comment to new inspectors and all other HI's.
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Roy,
No problem my man......No problemo at all.....I agree with you as it is not something HI's should venture into most certainly unless you have experience in that part.
As we all know it is ok to go beyond the SOP....but brings in potential legal issues for the HI.....
You all know me by now......I just like to bring in the NEC stance on most issues because that is my area of study.....
Thank you again Roy....and your post was great and is true in all respects for HI's to know.
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Also I guess it is important to note that FPN’s are sometimes considered CODE when tables are used and the actual table represents a footnote for example Table 310.13, the FPN at the end of that table is considered mandatory and enforceable because it has baring on the table itself.
Many times the "FPN" are also found in the Appendix sections of the NEC as stated above for tables..But they usually do not say FPN...they will just be numbered references affixed to the actual table they represent.
But in general, like the case of the 3% Branch and 5% Feeder voltage drop is really a suggestion and recommendation by the NEC and NFPA versus being actual code in this case.
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I am still skeptical of the voltage drop test the Sure test uses. I would like to see a real test with a fixed load like a space heater vs the Sure test. I would be curious what things like wire routing and such would do to the result. This has to be a very short duration pulse on the load or you would be tripping breakers a lot. You may be seeing some inductive effect on the voltage drop. Another connected load may also affect the reading.
I may ask around and see if I can borrow one.
If all of the connections were tight 100' of #14 should drop about 7.4v down and back. (6%)
Originally Posted By: rbennett This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
When ask to do a voltage drop inspection for extra $$ I use a electric heat gun for a load (because I own one) – it pulls about 11 amps and I can change the current a little by adjusting the air flow.
An amp and a volt meter all hooked up to a small breakout box with a plug on it. I also have adapter plugs to check dryer, stove, boat docks, RV, etc. (Meters all checked to better than +/- 1%)
While not testing at rated current one does get an idea of the resistance of the run back to the transformer.
If one wants to get just the voltage drop from the breaker panel take another reading at the panel with the branch still loaded.
I agree that the sure test is a good idea. It is quick, small and easier for a non trained person to use. I just like basic test equipment that I have used for years and can count on.
I also would like to see it tested against a load tester in a controled condition with line Z and well as R in the equation
I might go out a buy one. Yes we are going out on the SOP limb a little and I too think sometimes a little too far.
For the ones that do VD testing and find problems has sparky ever questioned the finding and has a pee pee contest started or does he just come out and fix the problem
Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Greg Fretwell wrote:
This has to be a very short duration pulse on the load or you would be tripping breakers a lot.
No doubt and that little yellow handheld would get burning hot in a very short time. By the time you where done testing an entire house it would be a puddle of melted plastic. 
Originally Posted By: russell r. This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
wdecker wrote:
Russ;
You said that you wanted to understand the HI point of view. Maybe this will helps.
I work in a state where HIs are required to be state licensed, but electricians are not. Just the opposite, I would think, of Georgia.
Our state HI law says that home inspectors are supposed to call out anything that is a 'safety hazard'. We do not inspect to code for 2 reasons:
1) We are not code inspectors. That is the resonsibility of the local AHJ. In fact, if we do quote code, we can be opeing ourselves up to increased liability. Also, remember that 'codes' are a bare minimum standard, varies from village to village areound here and is more of a political standard than a technical one.
2) Something can be in complete complience with code (grandfathered) but still be a safety hazard. A house built ing the 70s that does not, and is not required by local code, to have GFCI protection meets code. But, is it safe? Would you live in a house where the bathroom outlets are GFCI protected? In this state, if I see such a situation, or bedrooms that are not AFCI protected, and do not call them out (regardless of code) and someone gets hurt, I can, and will, be held liable.
I have had a number of electricians, hired to sellers to evaluate my call outs, call me and tell me that something is up to code. I ask them if it is safe. They, usually, do not seem to understand the question. See my point. Electricans and home inspectors work in two different worlds.
Around here, we have many, newly built, McMansions, houses of 5,500 SF and over that were built from tear downs. It is common to find a 15 amp outlet that has a wire run of over 100 feet and uses 14 guage wire. What usually happens is that such an outlet will read as having 10 to 20% voltage drop at 12 amps, a violation of the NEC (but not necessarily the local code). Obviously, the 'electrician' (usually some shlub off the street that the GC hired to pull wire) should have run 12 AWG instead of 14 becasue of the run length. But the don't. Is this an acceptable situation according to code? How about according to safety?
Hope this helps you. Thanks for joining in and I would welcome any comments.
I understand most of what you're saying William. But with respect to New Construction,I feel that a Building or home wired according to NEC Standards is safe,at least according to NFPA,and what we have to work to.
My feelings are that the " 2 different Worlds" are a part of the problem. Yes,Code is Minimum,but most areas around here are on the 2002 NEC,with very few variations. Now,if an HI comes thru,sees something an AHJ missed and calls me on it,thats fine. I can fix it,and my Liability is reduced and a possible hazard gone. But if an HI sees something thats Code- Compliant,and feels it's " Not safe",my question is how the heck do I work to an HI's interpretation of Safe?
BTW,this is an excellent site,and I'm learning things here. Thanks to all. 
Originally Posted By: wmartin This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
My feelings are that the " 2 different Worlds" are a part of the problem. Yes,Code is Minimum,but most areas around here are on the 2002 NEC,with very few variations. Now,if an HI comes thru,sees something an AHJ missed and calls me on it,thats fine. I can fix it,and my Liability is reduced and a possible hazard gone. But if an HI sees something thats Code- Compliant,and feels it’s " Not safe",my question is how the heck do I work to an HI’s interpretation of Safe?
BTW,this is an excellent site,and I'm learning things here. Thanks to all.
Hi Russ,
The "2 different worlds" need to communicate. I always stress to my client that if he or someone that is doing the corrective action have a question i'm available.
As an electrician you are the specialist for that field. We are the generalists that try to have a working knowledge of all systems in a house. Sometimes we see things that may involve more that one system that equals a safety concern. (an outside receptacle and a hose bibb within two feet).
We need to help eduacate each other.
Drop a line, next time i'm in your area, we'll teach each other.
Originally Posted By: russell r. This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
wmartin wrote:
My feelings are that the " 2 different Worlds" are a part of the problem. Yes,Code is Minimum,but most areas around here are on the 2002 NEC,with very few variations. Now,if an HI comes thru,sees something an AHJ missed and calls me on it,thats fine. I can fix it,and my Liability is reduced and a possible hazard gone. But if an HI sees something thats Code- Compliant,and feels it's " Not safe",my question is how the heck do I work to an HI's interpretation of Safe?
BTW,this is an excellent site,and I'm learning things here. Thanks to all.
Hi Russ,
The "2 different worlds" need to communicate. I always stress to my client that if he or someone that is doing the corrective action have a question i'm available.
As an electrician you are the specialist for that field. We are the generalists that try to have a working knowledge of all systems in a house. Sometimes we see things that may involve more that one system that equals a safety concern. (an outside receptacle and a hose bibb within two feet).
We need to help eduacate each other.
Drop a line, next time i'm in your area, we'll teach each other.
Bill
Sounds good Bill. I can tell you everything I know in about 30 Seconds. 
Originally Posted By: russell r. This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Well,I’m still learning things here. And I’m beginning to see some of the HI’s Perspective on things…scratchin’ my head about some of it…but learning nonetheless.
